But I love when you talk about that magic of the moment. That's what we do it for, isn't it? It's that infinitesimal split second that has been captured and transformed into something fantastic. And that is the joy of what we do. Hello and welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson and I'm the founder of SheClicks, which is a community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I speak to women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them and how they got to where they are now. Today's guest is Hat Margolies, a director of Lucid Representation, with more than 25 years in the photography industry, Hat represents photographers specializing in food, drink, people, interiors, travel and lifestyle, helping them build successful careers by taking care of the business side of photography. Hello, Hat. Thank you for joining me today on the SheClicks Women in Photography podcast. It's great to see you again. It's great to see you too. Thanks so much for inviting me to be part of this. you're very welcome. Can we start right at the beginning? What did Hat, the schoolgirl, think her career was going to be? So I thought I was going to either be a barrister, a politician or an actor. And I would say the acting is the closest that I have to this. Although the politician comes in here as well. Yeah. So how what happened then? How did it? How did you find your way to where you are now? kind of quite a strange course and I think it's interesting because I'm not sure it's the kind of thing that could happen these days because I was doing a drama degree and when I finished my drama degree I was acting and obviously... you're doing more time not acting than you are acting. And so I temped and I temped in lots of different kind of media companies. So I was always in production companies or places like that. And I ended up in a company called Image Bank on Conway Street or ~ in Fitzrovia, which was Mm-hmm. a stock library. in the days where stock libraries, the things were in catalogs, the transparencies were in hundreds of drawers upstairs and people came in. So I was the receptionist dealing with people coming in and out, learning so much about the business just from conversations that you were having in the reception or the packages you were sending out to various places or. all of those kind of things that was quite interesting. And when I left there, somebody needed somebody to do returns, which again is a job that doesn't exist anymore, on a newspaper. So that was checking all the image numbers for all the transparencies that weren't used off the list and making sure they corresponded and sending those back to the photo libraries because transparencies were expensive and valuable and that very boring but important job taught me which libraries stopped which, which things I thought were interesting, why was an image picked and this one wasn't, you know, all that information that you learn without being taught because you're just absorbing it from the job you're doing. And then I was trusted to move into picture editing. So I spent... probably 10 to 15 years as a picture editor on newspapers, magazines, newspaper, magazines again. And then I just sort of, I ran out of places that I wanted to be working. And I thought, I love organizing things. I love putting the right people together. I love making things happen. Actually, let's hop the fence. So I always say, I went from gamekeeper to poacher and became an agent. Yeah. Amazing. Did you find as a picture editor, are you allowed much freedom or are you sort of led down the line of, you know, this is this magazine style or this is the type of photographs that we want in our magazine? Or do you get, did you have a bit more freedom? It really depends on the place. So I spent a long period of time at Good Housekeeping magazine. And I would say that's the one I had the most agency at. So there would be fashion department organize their own stuff, ~ cookery, often you'd just be booking people, but you wouldn't be arranging it. But in the features department or the health department, that's when I could indulge my love of still life and kind of creating ideas or just in terms of how we shop. portraits or who we used for portraits all of those kind of things. But you have to get everything through an editor of course so you have to argue your idea and your what you wanted to do. But I did some projects I was really proud of I think one of the ones I loved most was we did 10 decades of women. from 0 to 10 up to 1 to 100. And we matched a different female photographer with each female subject. So I got to commission Jane Bown and Mary McCartney and all kinds of brilliant people that you wouldn't think would work for good housekeeping, but the project was interesting enough and we were persuasive enough. And that still feels like one of the things I'm really proud of. Fantastic, that sounds really good. I think there's an element of sisterhood as well, isn't there, with those sorts of things. There are some things where you think, yeah, let's do this. Yeah, exactly. And I think there's a really lovely sense of, again, it's about matching the right person, isn't it? You kind of see when somebody's personality is really going to work with somebody else and you're going to get something that's more than both of those people are on their own. And that is always lovely. Yeah, amazing. So what did that time teach you about how photographers stand out or how a photographer would stand out from the crowd? I think it's really interesting because again it's in those days when we were all in the office the whole time. I used to see photographers... at least once a month. So at least once a month I would see a new photographer. And often you would have your stable of people that you were using on a regular basis that worked for these different kind of sections. But if you saw somebody who you knew might be good if that person was busy or their work was really interesting, but they also, because we were mostly photographing in my department, people who were not used to being photographed. So real people. And if they couldn't make me comfortable standing at the light box, looking at their work, they weren't going to make somebody who'd never been photographed before comfortable. And so that was a real kind of hard line of they won't work for us. If they can't make me feel at ease, they're not going to be useful for us for sending out to people who are anxious or worried and stuff. And obviously the work had to be really good, but it had to be in the style. You're absolutely right. You've got a house style. You can't go too crazy with that. You can push it a little bit. You can say, well, this kind of feature has got a different feel, so we should do something that's a bit more dramatic or a bit more something interesting. But really you have to make it work in the style. And I think with editorial photography, the joy is the photographer is the heart of it. You choose the photographer for their existing style, whereas for advertising people fall in love with the photographer's style and then book them to shoot something that's totally out of their style. Yeah, I guess so those interpersonal skills, but also that ability to accept that they have to shoot to a style would be a big thing because if you just if you've says if you're working with someone who sort of says, yeah, I can do that. And then they produce something completely different. That's not a winner is it? No, and again, that's one of the things that when I'm working with photographers on their portfolios, we're always talking about consistency within the work. That if you've got a portfolio, the first five pages should be the heart of everything that you are, because people go, oh, right, okay, I got it. And then you can go, oh, but this is a bit different. Okay. But they know at the end of the book, they know what they're going to be commissioning. Otherwise, it's just, it can be a bit, they're not gonna trust it. And if they're not gonna trust it, they're not gonna hire you. Okay, would you say that that first five pages translates to Instagram as well? You know, there's a certain amount of distance that people will be prepared to scroll. Yeah, think definitely you want, I mean, I think you have to choose how you use your Instagram. So like for us, stories is where we put things that are quite different or playful or behind the scenes, but on our grid, that will be the kind of heart of what the photographers do. And it will only be stuff that I'm happy to look at 10 weeks later. And I wouldn't go, ~ God, why did we put that up? You know, although. If people do that, delete it. Don't feel any guilt about like, I've changed my mind. Yeah, yeah, I guess you can always take it down, but it can't be unseen. It can never be unseen. And that's again the same with the portfolio or with your Instagram or your website. Never put something that you're like, hmm, about on there because actually people remember the weak things. They remember the thing that made them go, ~ which is annoying. It shouldn't be the case, but it's true. Yeah, yeah, it's kind of human nature, I suppose, isn't it? So for photographers who haven't ever worked with an agent, what do you actually do? Well, I mean, I always joke that we are a cross between a therapist, a business manager and a hype woman for our photographers. So, yeah, I mean, you know, it's not a bad combination. Sometimes when you have to get two of them in the same place at the same time, it can be quite hard. But I would say it's about... For us, and every agency runs differently, that's the other interesting thing. It's a really individual thing. I like looking after people, a small number of people that I can really look after, that I really know, that I understand their work, and I know where they want to be going with their work, and we have a connection. So I think it's really, my job is making sure that the work that comes in is the right work for them. Sometimes it's as much about helping them say no to things as it is saying yes, which seems counterintuitive, but is really important. Making sure that they are charging the right amount, talking to them about their personal work, talking to them about what their next project's going to be, equipment. It goes across everything. Should we be doing this? What do we think about that? Sometimes, especially recently with changes in as social media changes or different things. I try and set up, like we did a Zoom call with Charlie Giles, who's a brilliant marketing person for creative agencies and people. We did a Zoom with all the photographers who wanted to come about Instagram and how to use it and what's happening now, the latest trends, because I think it's really important that you're giving your photographers something more.~ And also we've got a WhatsApp group for them to talk to each other and ask each other about printing. you know, one of our photographers got a new printer that she was going to be printing her prints for the book. And she could talk to three or four of our photographers who are already doing that and they could say, this paper's a nightmare, do this, leave these. And that's great. That saved her a lot of money and a lot of heartache because that network supports each other. Yeah, that's really good. So clients come to you, it could be a magazine, it could be an advertising agency with a brief and you look at your photographers and decide who that might suit. Sometimes it's that way around, sometimes they know exactly who they want. So if it comes to us with a brief, so we had a food client that came to us with a brief. They were looking at two of our photographers. When I sat down on a call with them and discussed the detail of it and how it was going to be shot, I knew exactly which photographer would be the best fit for the job. So then, and they were like, yes, that's who we were thinking too. But it felt good that we were both aligned in thinking the same way. So if I think something's really not going to suit somebody or that somebody's really not suitable, I'll flag it because anybody who does a bad job affects everybody in the agency. If something goes wrong with one of our photographers, that's it for everyone. Does it work the other way around as well? Do you go to your clients and say, hey, look, we've got this photographer, they're working on this project. I think it could be a really good fit for your magazine or something like that would really work with what you're trying to achieve? We do it less with magazines just because ~ time-wise that would be too tricky for us to be doing all of that. But what we will do is say to work with our photographers to build a hit list of magazines or people they should go to. But we will go to clients, existing clients and say, have you seen this new project of one of our photographers that we think is really suitable for your clients? Or we send out mailers, all of that kind of thing. So yes, you're always having to, it's really important to stay in touch with people not just selling them stuff the whole time. You you're building relationships all across the industry. It sounds like a fun job. Yeah, when it's good, it's really good.~ When, I mean, again, you're on your own. I always joke that we are double client facing doing this job. So you've got the photographers are clients and the clients are clients. So you can be stuck in the middle sometimes and that can be quite tricky.~ But when it works, it's such a joy. And when it doesn't, You just grit your teeth and get on with it, don't you? Like everything. It's a job, it's a one job, and then that job will be finished. And you know, sometimes there's been clients who've been so awful that we haven't worked with them again because we just think life is too short. Yeah, yeah, I think it's important to decide that when you've got the luxury of business elsewhere, I suppose, if you're running around desperately trying to get clients and you've to take what you can get, I suppose. But I think that's true. But I also think there's a point at which you know that some clients are actually detrimental to your, either your mental health or the work you're doing for them is absorbing so much time and energy, you haven't got the energy to find the right work. So yeah, that's where I would say my skill of saying no to photographers saying, you should say no to this is really important. Okay. Yeah, sounds like some good advice. At what stage in a photographer's career do you think they should start thinking about getting an agent and how would you suggest they go about it? I think there's two points that are really good times for a photographer to get involved. One is when you're kind of up and coming and you might want a bit of mentorship and you've seen an agency that you like the work, you like the photographers, you can get in touch with them in a very clear, I know I'm not ready for this yet, but I would love to show you my work or talk about where I could go or what. So you're getting in on their radar really early on. And that's a very good position to be in. And also because sometimes jobs come in to us that are not right for our photographers, but we've seen a brilliant young photographer who would be bang on for this and we can recommend them. And so that can help them. But also we've got people with like keeping an eye on you. We know you're interesting and you know, we watch what they're doing. We ask them to keep in touch. We see them maybe twice a year just to see what they're doing. So I would say there's about four or five photographers that we've got that relationship with where we are they come to us for advice we look at their work, we help them with things, but we also are keeping an eye on them so that when they're ready, we might be the people that they choose to go with. And the other point is when you're really busy, when you're at that point where you think, I can't do justice to the clients I've got or finding the work I want to be doing, and maybe I need to find a way of getting rid of some of those clients that aren't serving me in the same way that I need to move forward, and I need somebody who can help work with me on that, but can also take some of the grunt work. Because of course, that's the thing I didn't mention, all the paperwork, all the licenses, all the invoicing, all the chasing invoicing, that's all our side of it. okay. Yeah, that sounds like very beneficial to a photographer because that's very distracting and time consuming. Yeah, and it's often the thing that photographers really hate doing. And I hate doing it for myself, but when I'm doing it for somebody else, that's fine. Yeah, exactly. what would you say is probably the biggest misconception that photographers have about agents? I would say that we are a magic bullet that's going to bring you work. Right. because or that you can just stop doing all the outreach and everything else that you've been doing because you've got an agent now.~ well, we'll just relax. That's the opposite. You've got to be working. just as hard, we're gonna be asking stuff of you. We're gonna be asking you to invest some of your money in doing test sheets for things that you want to be doing but aren't in your book or what's happening with personal work or can you bring us this or print your portfolio. So you've got to be ready to invest time and money when you have an agent. Okay, well that's interesting. The photography industry has changed a lot over the last 25 years. I you were talking earlier about having actual books of images to go through and transparencies. What do you think have been the biggest changes? So the change from film to digital was huge. And I was, again, working in magazines at that moment that that crossed over. And I think there are two things about that film. that were the biggest change for photographers. One, they lost a lot of their light touch community that they would just bump into at the developers or pick up their clip tests or doing that. So they lost that sociability and that interconnection with people that you don't, they're not your friends necessarily, but you'd see them a couple of times a month and you'd check in and that went, that was gone. And it was never built in. the extra time and energy that certainly in editorial that the developing would. good take up. So you know, if you had a film that needed to be developed, you knew it was going to take two days unless you paid extra for a rush job and then it would be there quicker. But that photographer did their job, handed it in, could work on something else, then come back and pick it up. Instead, you moved into this world where photographers did the job, rushed home, edited it because there's no reason why they can't do it straight away. And so people lost a lot of... of their time and weren't really compensated for it properly. So I would say though that was a huge change in the workflow of photographers. When you say compensated, mean compensated financially because they were basically doing the job that the film processor used to do. Yeah, yeah, and they definitely weren't charging anywhere near as much per roll as their film people. And the other thing I think is it changed the way, if you've got 36 shots or 20 shots, you choose, you choose carefully and you think about what you're doing. If digital is limitless apart from your time, some people do the kind of spray and pray and... yeah, okay, you're gonna spend three days editing that, but also you don't, you can't be certain in the way that you could be when you shot something and thought, I mean, I've done it as an amateur, you know, when you photograph something, you think, yes, I've got it. That is that moment. And I think when you're, I think people have gone back to that considering thinking about it again, because... That's when you get the really beautiful work. Yeah. Yeah, I think even with the spray and pray, you have to go through, you know, lots and lots of images, but you still get that feeling on the back of your neck when the hairs stand up, when you realize you've come across the right frame. It's quite a magic thing. Yes. Yeah, that's true. Yes. And I think particularly with mirrorless cameras and you sort of see the image flicker through and then you kind of think, I think that was it. and you've got it in the back of your head and you go back and you're looking through and actually it's five earlier or, you know, five frames afterwards or something. But I love when you talk about that magic of the moment. That's what we do it for, isn't it? It's that infinitesimal split second that has been captured and transformed into something fantastic. And that is the joy of what we do. Yeah. Do you shoot any photographs yourself beyond using your phone and that kind of thing for fun? I... I've still got, mean, for my 16th birthday, I was given a Practica film camera, which I still have, but only to use as a doorstop or to whack a burglar over their head with. But I still have a film camera. My youngest daughter has got a Fuji Instamax, which she loves. Again, for that tactile, tangible, she thinks about it, she chooses. So I still, I'm going back into shooting more film when I was at the photo show. I went to the film stores and picked up some films so when I go on holiday this summer I'm getting the film camera and doing that but I always joke that I take two cracking shots a year and it's not bad Yeah, those memorable ones that you think, you know what, I'm gonna put that on the wall. Yeah, yeah, and I think it's about how you see things. I was never confident enough as a photographer when I was taking photographs to... to get in as close as I wanted to do or those things. My most successful ever kind of set of photographs was when I was, again, 16, 17, I went to New York with my mum and my mum hates being photographed, but she loves being a sort of stooge. So she would stand next to the thing I wanted to photograph and then I would get a great photograph of them because they thought I was photographing my mum. And then I'd get a great photograph of my mum looking really pleased because she's not being photographed, but she's helping me kind of do this thing. So that was a win-win. Yeah. So before we go to Six from She Clicks, what advice would you give to someone who today is hoping to build a long-term career in commercial photography? Okay so number one is you need to find somebody honest to help you edit your work. somebody who you trust that will say to you, that one's not so good or this one's amazing. Often photographers are so close to their work they find it really hard to edit it without remembering that that shot took three days or you know that person was horrible or you know whatever it is. So you need to find a sort of the opposite of an echo check, a sounding board or a couple of them, you can do it with other people that you can kind of check your work with and do things. You have to look at every job that comes in. that it should do one of three things. It should either be something amazing for your portfolio, something that's gonna really lift it and move it forward. It should be working with a brand or people or a person that you really want to or you feel will move you forward, or it should pay really well. And it should be one of those three, ideally two of those three. And I always say if it's three of those three, you have to watch out for falling blocks of ice from the, you know, because that's just too much good luck. But if you... If you use that as your kind of check-in for every job that you're offered, you will find yourself not wasting time on jobs that are really tricky and don't pay enough, that you could actually be off doing a personal project that you could send to a magazine or show to potential clients or get an exhibition or any of those things that would use your energy better. Assisting, I think, is a brilliant thing. Never ever underestimate what you learn from assisting and from seeing how that works without all the weight of it being on you. That's a really, really useful thing. You will learn so much more than you would think you learn from assisting. Never be afraid of asking questions, even if they feel like stupid ones, because it's only when you don't ask the question and then you end up in the shit that's when you look like an idiot, not when you ask a question. I ask a million questions all the time. I don't care. Yeah And sort of keep, you have to keep the faith. I know that sounds ridiculous but it's like if you lose that heart love of it, people feel it. you feel it, everybody feels it and there might be another way of working in photography that isn't going out every day and taking photographs but and there and there are so many other parts of the industry that you can work in there's no shame to going you know what it's enough I I'm tired of doing it this way but if you don't have that fire that spark you know you won't you won't get far and you just don't be afraid of negotiation. Okay, that's quite a lot of advice. Thank you. I think that's great. that too much? No, no, I think it's great. It's really good, condensed, but brilliant. Okay, so let's go to Six From SheClicks. I've got 10 questions from SheClickers and I would like you to answer six questions, please, by picking numbers from one to 10. So could I have your first number, please? I'll go for number seven. Number seven, is that your lucky number? Well, it's a number I always like, yeah. Okay, right. Have you ever regretted representing a photographer? And if yes, why? That question's from Helen.~ yes. I don't think I've ever not. Now, how this is a move. I've not regretted it over the whole kind of career, but there will be things that a point at which I should have said enough that I didn't. And that's because their workflow or the way they worked then affected the rest of the. roster and that's again I have to be mindful of not just my reputation but also my whole roster's reputation. Yeah, okay. Can I have your second number, please? Number two. What is the thing other people find most surprising about your job? That question's from Liz. Hmm. I suppose maybe they're most surprised that there's a creativity within our work. I mean I always joke that I'm fancy logistics but actually we're part of creating ~ somebody's, you know, with their portfolios, with the way they present their work, with their kind of personal work. We're involved in all of that so I would say it's a more creative job than people think. It must be very exciting trying to find opportunities for someone and progress their career as well. And it's amazing when there are very few jobs that you can do this with, but a couple of jobs where I can say, I met that person, I arranged that meeting, we had the second meeting, we made 237 versions of the quote, and then we won the job on Christmas Eve. know, there is a job that was like that. And you're like, it's so lovely to see that progression and feel like we made that happen. Yeah, lovely. Okay, can I have your third number please? Number three. You offer a wide variety of subjects and genres from different photographers. Is there something for you that links these? That's another question from Liz. So I would say that what links all of our photographers work is their humanity and it's people or it's objects that people use or it's places and that's what I say, it's kind of lifestyle in the broadest sense. I don't do pure fashion, I don't do pure beauty because I like those things that are... are maybe softer, more connected to humanness and also because it's my agency, I guess my own taste and my own sensibility comes through in the photographers that I choose to represent. Would you say that it's more every day in the sense that it's every day being elevated, but everybody can recognise the scenario, the scene? I would say that's absolutely right. It's connected to reality and rooted in reality. And that's how I like it, I guess. And I often find that the clients that you're working with have that same sensibility. And then that's really lovely to work with people like that. Yeah, okay. Can I have your fourth number, please?~ Number 10. How much of the legwork do you expect to do for a photographer or does this vary massively? That is another question from Helen. I think it varies quite a bit. It depends on how experienced the photographer is. So you might be holding somebody's hand much more if they're either at the early point in their career or they're moving from one part of the genre to another, you might do a bit more hand holding. But... What I think is most important is that we're very explicit about what we expect from each other because it's got to be a relationship where everybody knows what they're doing. Okay, and your penultimate number please. Ooh, number six. this is a good one. This is from Caroline. There is a lot of anxiety in the photography community right now around the impact of AI, with many believing that generative AI will wipe out a lot of commercial photography. From your perspective, how are brands balancing AI tool use with real human led shoots? So this is a really interesting question. And obviously I'm a board member of the Association of Photographers, which means that we're talking about AI all the time, and I'm talking about with photographers and with clients. I always say that... lower level, that kind of bottom that is just churn on Instagram or social media or stuff, that is going to turn into something that's just AI because it's so nothing, it just disappears. But Primark exists as does Savile Row. Brands that really believe in what they're doing and again, the humanity of it, need to show that within their... their work. mean, again, I was talking to somebody about teenagers just going, ~ AI slop, their response to it is not positive. They're not saying, wah-ha, AI. They're recognizing craft and all of those things. I think the things that we can do to really help with that is you can... point out the value of what you're doing, not being AI. mean, especially with brands, the fact that you can offer behind the scenes of the photo shoot being created, that gives that brand another thing to shout about when they shoot something for real and not with AI. It's about that kind of the sustainability, the fact that actually when you include data centers, electricity and water use, what AI uses is shocking in terms of ~ how unsustainable it is compared to a photographer. And I think what we're seeing is AI being used As we talk to agencies more and more, they are using AI for the things like maybe for a scamp, but even then they're redrawing it because if they show an AI scamp to a client, they think that this thing can be done and it can't be done. So you have to use it as a starting point and then redraw it or do something or use it for working out. something that's boring, that is how to make the shoot the most efficient in terms of timings. Fine, use it for that. Transcribing, know, meetings so that you know you've got all the details. But for actual, pure human creativity, it's the only thing in which I'm like, secondhand is no good, because that's all it is. It's just secondhand creativity. And you and I and our photographers and our community see things for the first time. They look at something and they see it a different way from anybody else and that cannot be replicated. Yeah, I think that's a really good answer. the bit about using AI for all the dull admin and mundane stuff that nobody really enjoys is great. Really, you know, take, it frees up a lot of time and that's what you can put into being creative. Exactly. Okay, right, so your final number, please. I'll have number four. What is the single biggest mistake you see photographers make when submitting their portfolio to an agency like Lucid Representation? That's another question from Caroline. Okay, not, there's a variety of things. The first thing would be anybody who emails us to Dear Sir. That's not something that any of your members are going to do, but I cannot tell you how many times that happens and I'm afraid that goes straight in the bin. me nuts. Yeah. You're like, it doesn't take more than 30 seconds to find out. So that's your number one, that I know none of your members are going to be doing. The second thing is not looking at what we actually do. Mm-hmm. And working out where your work fits into that. Either you do something that we don't do. but that relates to what we do and you can see that there might be a space for it. Or you do something in the same realm, but in a different way, you know, so it's, you've got to be able to say, this is what I can see in your work and this is how I see my work relates to it. And that gets you us looking at the work because there has to be, there's a lot of kind of emails that we get. not from women mostly, which have a level of expectation. Hi, I'm a photographer, I'm great, look at my work and represent me. Okay, what am I getting here? Whereas actually the ones that even if the work isn't right, if somebody writes... something and says I saw this I really can see how my work might fit I'd love to hear what you say and sometimes you look and you think it's lovely but it's absolutely not for us Mm-hmm. we'll write back and say that it's really nice but not quite right for us it might be more this person or you know keep going and but you're gonna get a response if you have thought about why you're applying to us. And I think again, consistency is a really important thing in what we want to see because you will have to go out, if you're one of our photographers, you've done a job. Your car breaks down, the lights all break, the person's given you half an hour but they actually only give you 10 minutes. Nobody cares, you've still got to get that photograph. You still have to get 10 of those photographs and that is what makes you a professional photographer because you can do all that stuff that's needed to be done. And if we see that consistency within your work, we know that you're able to replicate and do the same thing in a different way. and again and that is really important for us when we're taking your work out. We have to be able to look at it and go I know who would love this. Yeah, it's really interesting throughout our conversation, obviously the quality of the work and the consistency of the work and the professional approach has come through. But I think the most overriding message I'm taking from our conversation is it's about connection in all sorts of directions and communicating with people and being real. Yeah, I think that's absolutely true. And you know, for a lot of big brands, that shoot day is a day out. You know, there's always five more people that you don't need to be on set on set because there's lunch and it's fun and it's nice. But actually, that's part of the job. And part of the job is making that connection, making people feel good on set. You know, we always have really good snacks because I know that that makes people go away feeling feeling quite good, a little sugar-high. But, know, generally you it's all about connection because we are humans to humans. And that's what's going stop AI so I know some photographers find it really hard to sort of they want to be behind the camera and let just the camera do the work and that is possible but it is harder you have to kind of build yourself a little shell when I went from picture editor and commissioner to my side, having to ask people for work. Suddenly I went from somebody that everyone wanted to talk to, to nobody wanted to talk to me. And you're getting rebuffed and rebuffed and rebuffed. And I had to really kind of build a thicker skin and use that drama degree to be like perky and cheerful and all of those things. And we all need a persona, a work persona sometimes. Yes, I think we do. And when you were talking about those five people on the shoot that don't actually need to be there, they're probably desperate to justify that the fact that they are there. So if you give them a little job, they suddenly feel, and they can say to the boss, I did that bit. Yeah. then they get to do it again, or they feel connected with that project and with that photographer. and that will go through because you don't know where they're going to end up. Mm, yeah, they could be the boss very soon. Mm. Well, Hat, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I've really enjoyed chatting with you. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for letting me talk about photography. I hope it's useful to your members. Thanks again for inviting me to do it. You're very welcome. Bye. Bye! Thanks for joining me for this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. Special thanks to everyone who sent in a question. You'll find links to Hat's website and social media channels in the show notes. I'll be back with another episode soon, so please subscribe to the show and tell all your friends and followers about it. In the meantime, you'll find SheClicks if you search for SheClicksNet on X, Instagram, Facebook and YouTube. So until next time, enjoy your photography.