I just started documenting all of my rock climbing, my mountain biking, and then that kind of snowballed. And I started getting asked to do articles for like adventure magazines, and then really quite quickly started getting hired by outdoor clothing companies and stuff like that to go and do photo shoots. Hello and welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson and I'm the founder of SheClicks, which is a community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I speak to women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them and how they got to where they are now. This episode is with Grace Taylorson Smith Pritchard, better known as Grace TSP, an award-winning adventure photographer and filmmaker celebrated for capturing human stories in remote and extreme environments. Hi, Grace. Thank you so much for joining me on the SheClicks Women in Photography podcast today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited. Oh, you're very welcome. That's good. Okay. So what was it that first drew you to photography and filmmaking? So my journey into this industry is not a normal one at all. It's had many twists and turns and it's gone all over the place. When I was a kid, I really wanted to go to film school. It's all I wanted. I'd bring home like, I'd order the prospectuses for like the New York Film Academy and be like, Mum I want to go to New York and study film. But unfortunately, what's not unfortunately, I was very academic in school. and my parents just wanting the best for me were there like, I think you should go to university and do something academic. So I ended up doing a law degree and by year three, I was just there like, this isn't for me. So I decided, I still did the degree, but after I finished that, I decided to go and take some time out and I really enjoyed scuba diving. So at 21, I just packed a bag and I moved to Thailand. and yeah, started working as like a scuba guide, but it pays like no money. And because it was my first time really going traveling and exploring, I took a camera with me and I started just documenting all of my travels. And I was putting it on social media and kind of being, it was kind of like when influencing just became a thing, but I started documenting all of my travels and sort of putting myself in front of the camera. and I started working in tourist boards and hotels and tour companies and that kind of kicked off but I quickly realised that I wasn't really doing it in an authentic way like it's amazing how viable it is as a career now but I was really forcing it at the time and I realised I actually just wanted to be behind the camera and not in front of it. So... I kept doing that, traveling around, working as a scuba instructor and then COVID hit. yeah, was forced to that. Yeah, mean, everyone's got COVID somewhere in their story, haven't they? So I was forced to come back to the UK and I was there like, I don't know what to do. Cause I'd tried office jobs and God bless anyone that can work office jobs. I'm honestly, I'm so impressed with people that can sit behind a desk all day. Cause my brain just doesn't work like that. So I was there like, well, what can I do? Maybe I can just keep documenting all of the sports that I'm doing now that I'm back in the UK. So I just started documenting all of my rock climbing, my mountain biking, and then that kind of snowballed. And I started getting asked to do articles for like adventure magazines, and then really quite quickly started getting hired by outdoor clothing companies and stuff like that to go and do photo shoots. So thankfully, quite quickly I was there like, I think I can just about get by without having to get another job to support myself. And that sort of just kept snowballing to where I am today. Yeah. I've done over 70 of these podcasts and I think you can count on one hand the number of people who've gone through what you might consider a remotely conventional route to a photography or filmmaking career. Everyone sort of says, oh, well, it was really random and I twisted this way and that. And it's almost like people kind of have to do something to discover photography and realise or filmmaking that that's actually what they want to do. Yeah, absolutely. that really contributes to sort of finding your style, to honing your eyes, all the stuff you do outside of the photography practice. I think it was Werner Herzog, the filmmaker, that said, if you want to get better as a creative, go and work jobs that have absolutely nothing to do with what you're interested in. Because that is how you're going to grow, and that's how you're to have all of these ideas. It doesn't surprise me at all that most people have really quirky ways of getting into this. Yeah, okay, yeah, I can see the sense in that. It's just kind of like, must sometimes, people must make those decisions to, right, I'll do something I don't want to do and be fighting it and just desperate to get to do the thing they really want to do. Yeah, yeah, I think there's a lot to be said as well for not ignoring that part of you, know, that that teenage part of me really wanted to be doing this and I ignored that calling for so long and it will find a way of like just clawing its way back into your life and being there like your little like creative being inside of you is like don't ignore me. But you did really well to do three years of a law degree and then actually finish your law degree, you without sort of just you didn't drop out, you got through it somehow. That's pretty good going. it actually, I wish I could say that was it, but after once I found the scuba diving and went abroad, I was just there like, oh, maybe this is what I'm supposed to be doing. So I actually went and did a master's degree in marine biology and then went on to start a PhD in marine biology as well. And it wasn't until a couple of months into the PhD that the photography was really kicking off. And I was there like, oh, I actually don't have time to do both anymore. So I chose the creativity over the PhD. But you're not kidding when you said that you were quite academic at school. You really were properly academic, but you love the creativity side more. Yeah, but I feel like all those experiences I've had through academia and especially all the marine biology stuff, know, travelling the world, that really has all fed into it and that's what's sort of, I guess, helped carve this niche for me in being an adventurous storyteller, you know, telling adventures through my work. So I'm very grateful for that time. Now was looking at some of your work and it's very impactful. You're clearly absolutely immersed in these extreme environments. But what struck me as being particularly challenging with your commercial work is that you're often trying to highlight a product. So for example, there's a watch campaign that you did and they're in the mountains and climbing and it's obviously quite extreme conditions. It's howling and there's lots of snow flying around. And you're showing that activity and that environment, but you've got to have the watch in the shot as well. Yeah, yeah, so that was a really tricky shoot actually. So that was for Casio, the watch brand, but they were collaborating with a really hardcore outdoor clothing company. So was a really fun campaign because you've kind of got like the high-end luxury, but mixing that with the really rugged sort of outdoor element to it. And I think with stuff like that. I say this a lot whenever I try and do talks and talk about working in these kind of environments. The skill really has to come first. If I hadn't been ice climbing and rock climbing for years, I do feel like a shoot like that is A, gonna be pretty impossible, but B, it's just not gonna be safe. And even after years of doing this, when the climbers were doing the ice climbing of this frozen waterfall, And I'm trying to position myself so I can see the watch as well as like getting everything in. Like it's bloody hard and I still struggle with that, you know, quite a lot of the time. So shooting in those elements really is, there's just so many layers to it. And I'm constantly learning. I'm still, you know, I mean, they say that about any discipline, whether you're in the mountains or not, but I'm constantly having to like hone my craft and like even being up there on Ben Nevis for this shoot. I was on the ropes and I was like, hi, I don't feel as comfortable as I usually do because I hadn't done a shoot like that for a while. And it's just a reminder that when you're working in these environments, like the photography is one side of it, but then also just those rock climbing skills and especially on the ice. So I like, I probably neglected that a bit. And I probably, so it was a nice reminder, like, I should probably go and do some more of that. So I feel just more comfortable for the next time. Yeah, absolutely. But what I really felt particularly with that campaign is I felt immersed in it. It was it was very apparent that you weren't, the other side of the crevasse or something, you know, shooting with a long lens. You were right there. Yeah, absolutely. So we had a rigor for the shoot, which was a bit of a luxury because most of the time, you know, I'll have to go and do all of the ropes myself to then go up. But we had someone to go and set this line up right on that waterfall where they were climbing. So then I had to climb up the back of the waterfall and then drop in, like rappel down the waterfall onto it. And I feel like, well, I'd like to think that kind of... skill set and like you say that immersion is why I got hired to go and do these kind of shoots because I do want the photography to reflect being in the sport like doing the adventure not just observing it. Yeah. Now we all know when you work for yourself, there are a million jobs that you've got to do. You know, you're the office cleaner, you do the editing, you do this, that and the other. But what does your ideal day look like? You know, when you look at the calendar and you see, yes, I'm doing that today. What is that thing that you love doing most? I mean, that's the beautiful thing about this. It's so varied. know, like one day I could be doing that commercial campaign and I'm ice climbing. And I found out last week that in the end of summer, I'm hopefully going to be going to Mexico and I'm doing an underwater campaign for a scuba diving brand. And that was really exciting to hear because I very rarely get to use those underwater skills anymore. And when... an underwater campaign comes in. Oh, that just, that's just like made my year. Like I penciled it out on my calendar. that's a real highlight just because it is a bit of a novelty now. Something that I used to do, know, diving like five times a day is now like a, if I get one in a year, that's just wonderful. Yeah. Okay, so more of that then. Yeah, just variety. I don't think I really have a perfect day because I enjoy so many different things. Yeah, just something that's... I had a bit of novelty and it's something that I've never done before. Like a couple of years ago, I got to go and do a wildlife shoot in Sumatra. And I'm not a wildlife photographer at all, but they wanted someone... It was a travel company and they wanted someone that could document and photograph the people just as much as they could... orangutans and that's why I got picked for it but that pushed me so far out of my comfort zone and I was like, can I even shoot this? But it ended up being just this wonderful steep learning curve for me. So just variety. That's really interesting, because when I was thinking about things I wanted to talk to you about, at no point was I expecting you to mention comfort zone, because you look like a person who doesn't really have a comfort zone, you're just out there the whole time. Yeah, I probably agree with that. Yeah, constantly trying to, it's tough because I'm constantly trying to find where that limit is, but like I said about like skill sets, do it safely. Like the first time I did anything to do with ice climbing, I was making a documentary about the British ice climbing team. And I went all around Europe with them, but then we had to go and do this shoot back on Ben Nevis actually. And... there was barely any snow so all of the routes were on the highest parts of the mountain and even getting to those locations I was there like I'm pushing it now and then once we finished that day and we got down I was there like yeah I should have prepared more for this like I definitely should have it's exposure therapy with stuff like this I should definitely should have had a bit more exposure to this before going in and shooting it Yeah. I mean, bear in mind, you're doing the climbing that they're doing, but you're also taking your camera gear with you as well. Well, most of the time I'm technically not actually doing the climbing that they're doing. So because we fix these static lines, I just, get to be really lazy and basically I've uh got this climbing gear on me that allows me to basically fake my way up the climb. So it's called like you have an ascender and you use it to basically hoist yourself up the climb. m Okay. So I have done shoots in the past that when the climbing has been within my capacity and my level, I will just go and do it. But when it comes to ice climbing, like I do not have the skill. I do not have the fitness. Those guys are so fit. So with that, I do just tweak my way up a line and I sit there. I mean that's still pretty energetic I should think. It's quite tiring. Yeah, it's definitely quite tiring. Now commercial work is one thing because often, you know, people will come to you with an idea of what they want to do. But what about your personal work? How do you find the stories for those? I think it's such a cliched thing to say, that old expression of it's not what you know, it's who you know. I think when you work in the adventure sphere, your contacts are kind of everything. And because you find one person that's incredibly inspiring at what they do, they're going to know someone else who's incredibly inspiring in another field. And you just kind of hop. from one contact to another. And people are always sharing incredible stories of like, you had this one time I was out climbing with this person and their cousin was doing this, you know what I mean? It's just like this web. once you're in it, it's quite a small world. And there's two, three degrees of separation between everyone and everyone knows each other. So it's just about building up this big contact pool to find people, to be honest. A good example is the... One of the first documentaries I made was actually about a friend of mine that I reconnected with after about 10 years. She went up to Scotland and she was doing the Cape Wrath Trail, which is this amazing hiking route from the, it's around Fort William all the way up to the North coast in Scotland. Takes about three weeks, but she decided to go and do it with a pack pony. So how they would have done it on the old drover roads back in the day. So I went and made this documentary about her and it was great fun. We just spent three weeks just traveling up through the highlands together. And then it was about probably six months after that she contacted me because she'd been out in New Yorker and she was just like, I've heard there's a load of cowboys in the middle of the island. She was there like, I think you'd find it really interesting. And I was like, can you get me a number? So she found a contact for them. I rang them up and I was just there like, look, I'd love to come and just be a fly on the wall and just observe what you guys do. So I went out there, I did a load of photography, made a five minute short documentary just with a tiny little camera. And yeah, now they're some of my best friends. I go back like four times a year. And it's just from pulling on threads really that you think might be interesting and just seeing where they lead. But that first time you spoke to them, said, I'd to come and talk, you know, to follow what you're doing. Did they like, why? I think they're a bit confused at first. And when I got out there, so it's this wonderful family of like three or four generations of cowboys. And what they do is they rescue old racehorses from across Spain. But it's a father and son that run this ranch and the father, Dran, does not speak a word of English. And he was so skeptical to begin with. I'd be photographing him and he'd just be like staring down the lens at me. But then you find things to connect over. Juan loved country music, so despite not being able to communicate with him in English, we really started to bond over music. And then by the end of the week, we're really close, and we're going out with the horses and having cheese and wine in the fields together. Yeah, it's just about like breaking down those barriers can be quite tricky sometimes, but there's always something, there's always common ground with anyone that you're documenting and it's just about finding what that is. Yeah, that sounds like a real fun time. So you, I mean, you shoot film and you shoot stills. How do you balance that? Because, you know, it's very easy to sort of neglect one and forget it and concentrate on the other. So how do you make sure you get the right balance? I don't think I do, to be honest. I feel like creative balance is a really hard thing to achieve. Even if you just have one discipline, right? I feel like when you are a really creative person, I do feel like you never get perfect balance with anything. But I don't see that as bad thing. Yes, when I first started after COVID, like I was saying, that was purely photography. And then... I made my first documentary in 22. That was the one following that girl in Scotland. And then since then, the tables have really turned and it's probably, I do more film work now than I do photography. But with most of the projects that I do with film, I try and just direct them. And like I have a director of photography that I work with quite regularly. That means that, because on lot of these projects, maybe I'm directing them, but there's usually a photography component as well. So I sort of direct and do stills and then work with a director of photography to capture all of the film. But yeah, it can be tough. Like I just had an interview recently for a documentary project that would be, I'd be sort of like self-shooting, I'd be a self-shooting director. as well as doing drone, as well as doing like B cam, well as, you know, or they wanted unit stills as well. You know, you do have to wear so many hats and it's tough sometimes, but sometimes you just have to do it. And I think it's about remembering that you're human and sort of letting yourself look sometimes and maybe you don't, you miss a shot and stuff like that. Yeah, I think it's just. doing as much as you can, but yeah, remembering that there's only so much you can do. true. But there's one thing with your personal projects, because you say, well, actually, I will let this lead. You know, I was going to do more stills, but actually the filming is taking over, so I'll let that go. But if you're doing a commercial project and they want you to self shoot everything, then you can't just sort of say, yes, sorry, there's only a few stills, but I've got loads of video. You've got to get the right balance, haven't you? Yeah, I on those commercial projects it is very rare that I'm doing everything. Very, very rare. I can't actually think of the last commercial project I had to do all of that in. I'd say the only time commercially that I still am fully responsible for all the stills and all the film work is when I do underwater work. Yeah, but apart from that... most of the times, you know, I'm not working on huge commercial campaigns that, you know, have, you know, like 10 plus crews, but most of the time it will be me and at least a camera assistant or a DP with me. Yeah. It's only really on those personal projects that I'll do both. Yeah, okay. You work in pretty extreme environments a lot of the time. How do you prepare both practically and mentally for those situations? You mentioned that, you know, it's changing all the time and you sort of have to remind yourself sometimes, I need to refresh my skills. I think fitness is uh a big thing. A good example of that is I recently finished a documentary that's doing the Film Festival Circuit right now. called The Bride of Mont Blanc and that's following this incredible woman called Elise Wortley who recreated the first female assent of Mont Blanc but did it in period accurate clothing from 1838. And um it actually took two attempts to go and do Mont Blanc. So the first time two years ago, we got about halfway up and there was this huge storm came in and we got forced to come back down. not that I'm grateful we couldn't summit that time, but it did make me realise like, I'm not fit enough for this. So the second year when I knew that we were gonna go and try again, like I was just in the gym on a Stairmaster with, you know, a backpack on. And I was like, I'm not gonna have that happen again. And it's funny, I felt better the second year, but it's still really, really bloody tough. And the second year actually had the producer summit with us. And I remember it took us three days to summit and on the second day, no, it was on the final day, I said to Amy, was like, Amy, I think you're gonna have to carry most of my gear. felt so dramatic, I'm not gonna make it. honestly, I was really struggling and what makes it even harder is that I'm really asthmatic, but I go and do all of these things in the mountains. So that's quite tough to manage as well. And on that particular day, I was just really struggling. And honestly, I think if I didn't have Amy there to take most of the camera gear to the summit, I don't think I would have made it. It was really struggling. Yeah. So fitness is probably the main thing in terms of like physically preparing. In terms of camera gear, it's just keeping it as small as possible. Like I recently did a talk at The Photography Show at the NEC in Birmingham and everyone's asking me like, what talk me through like all of your lenses? And it's like, despite shooting commercially for the past, you know, three or four years, I shoot on one camera with one lens. And that's because when you're out in nature, that's kind of all you need. So preparing for shoots is they're like, what can I get rid of? So it's they're like, what do I need? And then what can I get rid of? Yeah. So what is your camera and lens of choice then? So I'm currently shooting on a Fujifilm GFX100S. um I'm just obsessed with Fujifilm. I used to shoot on Sony a lot because it's kind of like the camera of choice for people working in the outdoors. And I totally see why. It was so quick, so versatile. I think whatever you're shooting on, think quite a lot people experience this. But I just got to this point where I like, I'm really bored. by looking at my own photography. And I think because everyone else in the industry is using the same camera as well, I think I was sort of emulating all the stuff that I was really attracted to and that I found really inspirational. But I was just there like, I'm not finding my own work very enriching. I wanna change things up. So I just sold all of my camera equipment and they're like, I'm just gonna try something entirely new. So I went for, I initially had the Fujifilm. GFX 50R, so obviously these medium format cameras. And it was such a different shooting experience that I really struggled to begin with because they're really slow, right? Because of obviously the sensor size that you're dealing with. And I bought the camera and I went straight into a shoot in the Swiss Alps and I was photographing an amazing woman that races Huskies and Husky sleds. And honestly, like... I was, my photographs were like so bad, most of them, because it was so slow. I just assumed like I'd just go straight into it without really testing the camera that much. And I was really struggling to focus. I was just missing everything because we're talking, know, like, I think it was about four to six frames per second. And I was there like, I've made an awful mistake, like changing my camera setup. But then I really sort of dedicate the time to be there, like, no, this is what you wanted. Like this is where the growth happens. And then eventually I got, I got used to it. I've just completely been off ever using automatic focus. So now I'd like to think I'm like really sharp with my manual focusing, even with really quick action sports. And Jed, that just entirely changed. It sort of really rejuvenated my photography and not that it's about kit, but I think switching that set up really helped me like find my like visual style. So I just shoot on that with a 35-70mm. I recently upgraded to a second lens in my arsenal which is a 100-200mm. But honestly that's it, it's simple. But that 35-70mm lens on that body is 95 % of my work. But I mean, they're fairly hefty lenses though. They're hefty, yeah, and it's not cheap going up to medium format. honestly, like when I switched, was like, that's all I can afford. But I still stand by it. I absolutely love that camera. I do agree with you though. It's not about the camera, but it is about finding the right camera for you and what you do. you know, it's just, if it brings you joy or delivers the sort of images that you're looking for, there's something about the handling or the results. It's just finding the right thing, isn't it? That's important. yeah, absolutely. And it's about experimenting. I think trying loads of different cameras out is such a fun experiment. When I went and shot the Mont Blanc documentary, knew that... This is a great example actually talking about shooting stills and filming at the same time. I knew that... I wanted to take some stills, right? know, I'm climbing Mont Blanc and I've got this incredible woman in this dress from the 1800s, but I can't take a GFX100S up there because it's massive and it's really heavy. So I actually went to Fujifilm and I was like, is there any chance I can try out your compact medium format, the 100RF? And they sent one out to me. And my God, that camera is just absolutely mind blowing. Like to have a medium format camera like this big just blew my mind. And that made me realise having shot on the 100S for like three years, as like, changing cameras up is so fresh and exciting. And it's making me feel like even if it's not swapping out my whole arsenal again, that I'm sort of craving trying. you know, new cameras again. Yeah. It's funny, should mention the GFX100RF because actually at The Photography Show last week, it won She Clicks Premium Camera of the Year Award. Yeah, because it's quite unusual, like you say, it's a compact, so it's got a fixed lens, but actually it's so versatile and it's so, I think it's a very, it really supports creative photography. You know, it encourages your creativity. Absolutely. you can kind of, it's kind of like a camera that you can, you can do anything with. Like I feel like it would make a great street photography camera because it's so inconspicuous. um Like I said, I took it up the mountains and it were in terms of just its ruggedness. It was absolutely incredible. You know, it really withstood the elements, but also despite being a fixed lens, like because you've got that medium format sensor, like I could just zoom in for miles on that bad boy and the quality was just still there. Yeah, I think if you wanted to go for medium format and I mean, yes, it's got a hefty price tag, but I do think it's worth it. And if you want something compact, you know, I totally get the hype about it. Before I tried it, I wasn't too sure, but having tried it, it's just like, I really want one now, it's amazing. I must admit I'm sold on it. I don't have one, but I am sold on it. Oh, yeah, yeah, I've tested it. I've reviewed it. It's yeah, I think it's a brilliant camera. And I actually really like sometimes those limitations of just having one lens because it stops you second-thinking, oh, should I do this? You just got to concentrate on what you've got and walk closer or further away or maybe think, well, I'll just crop that slightly. But yeah, yeah, I love it. So when you're freezing cold, maybe dangling from a rope, soaking wet, you can't feel your fingers, can't feel your toes, how do you keep your creativity flowing? Oh Yeah, it's tricky, it's tricky. I did a shoot last, when would it be? November time, that was another ice climbing one. And it was minus 15 up in Scotland. And I was there with a DP who's capturing all of the film for a campaign. And he was up on this line that we'd fixed. He came down and then it was my turn to go and get the stills. I was so cold. and my hands weren't working and I was trying to ascend the line and I was just there like, I sat on the line halfway up the wall and I was there like, and I hate that I did this, but I was like, this will do. And I got the shots and I came back down and then I got in the edit and I was there like, you should have gone up the line. And I was really disappointed in myself in that moment for settling. Yeah. just because I was a bit cold. And it wasn't a dangerous cold I'm gonna get frostbite. I just didn't push enough. And that can be quite tricky when you're not working in really comfortable conditions and there is a time limit. yeah, it almost haunts me a bit, but I'm using that to fuel myself for my next difficult job. like, no, Grace, don't want to get in that edit again and not be happy that you didn't push a little bit further. okay, so you've learned. Yeah. tricky. Moments like that are important because they're reminders, aren't they? Yes, definitely. I was up on a workshop in Glencoe last year when Storm Amy rolled in and it had been, just before it rolled in, it had been raining most of the day and that was okay, you we could cope with that. But then the wind suddenly hit and that combination of wind and rain, I feel like we could have dealt with one but not both. You know, when it's suddenly, there's the winds whistling around and know, holding on to whatever you've got to stay waterproof and... and the rain's just coming sideways, that just felt like eh it's really hard to concentrate on your photography then. You you've lined up a shot, but it's really hard to tell whether it's a good shot because there's so much else going on. One thing that I find that really helps in those situations is, even if it's just stills photography, is shot listing. because, especially the cold like your cognitive functions do go and you get like forgetful and I've had it before where I've completely forgotten to get shots that I know I needed to get and that was why I started to shot list. my stills as well so I get a little bit paper out and be like yeah I need to get that or you can then get your shot list out and you can prioritise and be there like right I've got these 10 frames I want to get I don't have the time or we're going to lose the light before we can get them all and then you can be there like okay probably not get those two but I know I definitely need to get X Y and Z so that's that's one little trick that I've sort of started doing that helps a little bit when the elements do really roll in And you're there like, maybe, maybe we're done. And then you get your look and it's like, we're not done yet. One more shot. Is that something you think you've picked up from filmmaking? Yeah, that's a really good tip. Okay, well, I think it's a really good time to go to Six From SheClicks. So I've got 10 questions from SheClickers and I'd like you to answer six by picking numbers from one to 10. So can I have your first number, please? ah Okay, let's go for eight. Which of your projects has been the most mentally and physically challenging? That question's for Marie-Ange. Oh, challenging for different reasons. feel like The Bride of Mont Blanc, the documentary that I've just done, that was probably the most challenging. Not just physically, but this is a documentary that actually is sort of the biggest budget documentary that I've worked on. So I was really feeling the pressure for that. And it was just challenging for so many reasons. So the ones I've already outlined, sort of like the physical challenges, there was so much to shoot in such a short amount of time. And then when we actually went for our summit push, we realised we'd one day less than we were supposed to. So we ended squeezing four days of climbing into three days. And when you're having to stop to make sure you get all the shots you need as well. then the time pressure on that, I really felt the time pressure during that shoot. But then that had so many logistical challenges as well because we really wanted to make sure that the entire documentary was made by women. So everyone from the mountain guides that we used all the way through to our composer, our sound designer, everyone was female, which in itself was quite challenging, but it shows why it was important. Yeah. like, because we really wanted to get a, like a soundie to come up the mountain too, but finding a soundie that was capable of climbing Mont Blanc, there was also a woman was really hard. So then I had to go and do like the sound as well, but um Logistically, that was quite tricky, but it made it so much more rewarding at the end when we had the premiere for the film and it was just this entirely female crew that had come together to do it. So yeah, definitely that documentary was the toughest. Was everyone apart from Elise in modern day clothing? Yeah bless her, so she had to look at us all in our really warm down jackets. But we did actually film it during a heatwave so when we set off from Chamonix it was over 30 degrees and until we sort of hit the glaciers like she was sort of stripped down to as little as she could wear because we were all so sweaty. I guess they probably didn't do that in the period that she was actually sort of recreating. Mmm, yeah, it was fascinating. So she had this massive dress on, but underneath the dress, she also had made tartan trousers, because what the women would have done at the time is, obviously trousers were like a no-no back in the day, but they hid them under their dresses. So she, when we got up into the mountains, just as the women would have done at the time, once they were away from society, they'd take their dresses off and just be in their trousers. So Lise did the same. So she had lots of layers that she could strip back to when it was really hot. OK, so your second number then, please. Let's go for two. What's your dream challenge to undertake? That question's from Paula. I've got quite, I've got so many, don't we all? One dream project I would love to do is kind going back to my academic roots, but when I was a scuba instructor, one of my areas of like specialities was like big pelagic sharks. And that was what I did my PhD on. And I would love to make a documentary and a photography series, sort of demystifying shark behavior. because I did a lot of work with shark specialists on how to read sharks in the water because they're so misunderstood and I'd love to make, this amazing woman called Ocean Ramsey has kind of done one on Netflix but I'd love to go deeper into the psychology of sharks and do just like a beautiful underwater documentary just looking at shark behaviour. Well, I'll keep an eye out for that one. Good luck with it. So number three, please. Let's go for a five. What is the first documentary you remember seeing? Do you think it has influenced your work? That question's from Liz. Ooh, first documentary. I remember seeing One of the first documentaries that really stuck with me, I can't even remember the name of it now, was it was a Werner Herzog documentary actually, and he was looking at people that were being, it's not a happy documentary, people that were being sentenced to death and being put on death row. I can't remember the name of it, but it was, it just like shook me to my core. and sort of made me realise, because before that I just, I was really into like gangster films and that was what made me want to go to film school. And then someone recommended this documentary to me and it just showed me this whole new side to filmmaking that I didn't really know existed. And I think that's what probably got me excited about documentary as an art form. I think more specifically in sort of the adventure. a documentary that really stands out to me as The Alpinist that came out a couple of years ago about a free soloing ice climber, so he goes ice climbing without any ropes and it was absolutely gorgeous and it's one of those documentaries that make you go how did they film that and I love documentaries like that. Okay, gosh, I need to look out for that one. So could I have your fourth number, please? Let's go for it. We had three. Let's go for three. Okay. Who are the photographers or directors that inspire you the most? That question's from Ann. Photography-wise, there is this absolutely incredible American photographer, and I'm probably going to butcher his name, but he's called Jay Kolsch. Kolsch? I'm probably butchering the surname. He's based in New York. And I take so much inspiration from his work. He does a lot of mainly commercial work, but it's very adventurous. He's done a lot with cowboys with He's done a lot of work up in Alaska, but he's also done some underwater stuff. And when I saw his work, was there, like, it was one of the reasons that inspired me to move to a different camera system, actually. I was just like, my God, like this realm of photography, this sort of adventure world can look like this and have this much expression in it. And... To this day, I will go on his Instagram and be there like, not how can I copy it, but how can I get shots like that? He continues to inspire me all the time. I recommend everyone checks his work out. It's absolutely gorgeous. And he's a proper, he loves the art form. Like he not only shoots digital, he shoots film. I'm pretty sure he's done like tin plate. He's done absolutely everything. His work's just gorgeous. Okay, someone to look out for then. Can I have your fifth number, please? nine. Let's go for... Okay, what do you prefer about still photography over moving images and vice versa? That question's from Rebecca. When the scales started to shift when I was doing film work all the time and it was really rare for me to get like a stills gig in, when I would get them, I'd just really relish the simplicity of it, especially when it comes to like post. You know, if I go and do like a day's shoot and I've got a day editing and they're like, it's so simple. I just sit down, I shortlist and I just edit the stills and then it's done. It's done, that's it. But having said that, since moving over to medium format, like the file sizes are so big. I cringe, not cringe, but the amount I've spent on SSD drives, just to cover these file sizes is absolutely crazy. And actually so much smaller than when I go and shoot a documentary. Depending on the project. Yeah, I can burn through a 256 gig card on medium format in a couple of hours. What do I prefer about film? that's such a good question. What do I prefer about film over photography? I guess it's the collaborative nature of it. The more I work in film, the more I get to collaborate with incredible people that you don't really get to in the photographic process. One of my favourite things now is working with composers. It's just so much fun. In exhibitions, there's nothing to stop you from doing that in the stills world and collaborating with a composer. I feel like photography can be quite lonely sometimes. If you choose it to be, it can not be. I mean, SheClicks is an amazing example of building a massive community through it. But I guess maybe through being on mountains and stuff like that, it can feel quite lonely sometimes. Whereas in film, there's so many different people needed to bring a project to life. And I used to consider myself like, oh, I'm a lone wolf. I work on my own and now... the more film work I do and they're like, oh no, just want to work with an amazing team like all the time. Yeah, that's really nice. I thought you might say something about the ability to tell a story more easily through moving images or something, but actually it's the collaboration that you really enjoy. Yeah, I don't think the moving image, I don't know, does it make it easier to tell a story? I think if you know what you're trying to say, I feel like you can tell it just as easily through stills. So yeah, I would say it's the collaboration. Yeah, okay. All right, so your final number then please? Let's go for a four. Yes. changes in photography and filmmaking have you seen since you started and has any particular change had a big impact on you or your work? That question is another from Ann. Oh, in terms of like, what, like trends or? I think it could be trends or it could be kit. I mean, you've obviously made a big transition in terms of your kit, so maybe trends. Yeah, trends. I'll tell you something that was a massive game changer for me, that for years I didn't really shoot with any kind of external lighting. um And then a mentor of mine introduced me to off-camera flashes. And that was such a game changer for me. I'd occasionally shoot with like... just a cold shoe mounted flash on. But then when I discovered off camera flashes and light sources, that was such a game changer for me. Especially when you're in the mountains, a lot of the time you just say, I'll just use natural light. But then I remember it was one shoot, I was doing a climbing shoot at night and we took loads of head torches and I took my off camera flash and I was just there like, this has just made the shoot. and now really try to push the limits with lighting in these quite inaccessible places. So when I was on that ice climbing shoot recently for the watch company, the DP was there like, he had this idea for this shot he wanted outside with all this spin drift going on behind. So we actually took up uh a huge light. Bless him, it took him and another climber. It was about an hour and a half walk in and they were taking it in five minute intervals to carry this light up because it was so heavy. Yeah. And we powered, we powered it by massive V-locks and took it out up into the snow. And we, we, we took these climbers out at God knows what time and we got these incredible shots. I felt like without that effort of bringing those lights up, you're never going to get a shot like that. So yeah, I think, I think, I mean, For me, it took so long to discover different ways of lighting things and that was just a game changer for me. Yeah, mean, guess, you know, finding the right lights that are going to survive in that sort of environment is a challenge as well. Or, you know, they've developed so you can get weatherproof systems now. Yeah, I mean, I've got to say like most most lights are modern lights are pretty good now. I've been really enjoying playing with LED tubes. When I was making The Bride of Mont Blanc, the documentary, I really wanted this one abstract scene. So what we did is we took a lease to this, it's like a wellness chamber. That's the equivalent of like a cold plunge, but it's dry. So it's cool. It's just a cryotherapy room. So the idea was like we were trying to recreate the anxiety that Elise struggled with, like um sort of try and show what mentally that might have felt like. So we took it into this cryo chamber that was minus 150 degrees. I mean, just you have to do like one minute intervals and it's amazing for your body. But I went in there with a load of LED tubes and... they lasted by the end of the shoot session. They gave up a bit and needed a bit of warming up, but most modern lights and those LED tubes now are fantastic. And your camera batteries are okay as well? Wow, fantastic. Yeah. I think the bit of kit that struggles the most in these environments are drones. Yeah, and that's not just like wind. don't know what it is. Drone batteries just, they do not do well in the cold. I remember shooting in the Alps a couple of years ago in minus 35 and a fully charged drone battery lasted me about three or four minutes. Yeah, yeah, they haven't caught up yet. No, mean, they have improved a heck of a lot over the last few years, but yes, those sort of cold conditions, they are really going to struggle. But also you can get icing on the propellers as well, can't you? And that will cause problems. Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, it's funny, isn't it? You know, like when you're when you're out in these incredible landscapes, that's the thing you sort of want to use the most to sort of really show it off. But it's also the bit of kit that struggles the most. There's some irony there. Well, Grace, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. It's been absolutely fantastic hearing from you. Yeah, thank you so much. I feel like I can talk all day about this stuff. You're very welcome. Bye bye. Thanks for joining me on this episode of the She Clicks Women in Photography podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. Special thanks to everybody who sent in a question. Your find links, Grace's website, social media channels in the show notes. I'll be back with another episode soon, so please subscribe to the show and tell all your friends and followers about it. In the meantime, enjoy your photography.