I've seen this so many times where journalists just come in with their own view of what the story will be. They've done all their homework. They've researched. And then, you know, they don't actually allow room for change. And stories change, and they are changing all the time. And it's so important to let the people whose stories that we're telling tell you what the story is to them. Not what we think it is, but actually what is most important. Hello and welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast I'm Angela Nicholson and I'm the founder of SheClicks, which is a community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I speak with women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them and how they got to where they are now. This episode features Ami Vitale, a multi-award winning photojournalist and Nikon ambassador who has made her mark by capturing poignant human and wildlife stories across the globe. Her work often highlights critical conservation issues such as the plight of the last Northern White Rhino and the panda reintroduction in China. Hi Ami, thank you so much for joining me today on the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. It's great to see you. It is great to be here. Thank you so much, Angela. thank you. Now, can we start right back at the beginning and find out why you first got into photography? What was it that really sparked your love of the medium? It's such a great question. I always try to bring myself back there to that beginning. And I think I was actually this very introverted, uh shy, quiet, afraid of the world sort of soul. And I actually secretly think that a lot of photographers are that way and that the camera becomes kind of our passport, this tool that... you know, allows us to cross borders. And then later as I got further into it, I realized that it can also be this powerful tool to build bridges, to connect people, to amplify other people's voices. And I loved how profoundly meaningful it became. So I think in the beginning, it was just this way for me to get into the world and explore. kind of became my superpower cloak. And then, yeah, and then it shifted and really became this, in a way, almost - once you realize the power of it all, it becomes this responsibility where you want to use it ethically and really, you you're just aware of like how images can shape the way people see one another and see the world. And so it became more serious for me as I got deeper into it. And does that weigh upon you, that need to communicate important messages, or does it still really drive you? I mean, I think both. I think once you realize the power of, you know, it is a very powerful medium. And I also realized the power that it has both ways. Like it can make people feel exploited. It can sensationalize. It can polarize or it can, you know, be - remind people of, you know, our connection and how It can create empathy and so it does weigh on me. And then I also am deeply inspired by it too because I see that we can use it for both things and I want to make sure that I'm very thoughtful about how I tell stories and create the images that tell these stories. When you first started out as a professional photographer, did you have any female role models? you know, to be honest, in the beginning, I mean, now I know there's so many out there. I didn't know about all of them in the beginning. And I think, you know, it's actually what led me to create Vital Impacts, which is a nonprofit that is building community and connections between one another, because I felt very isolated, very alone. I didn't see many role models and now I actually see many, many, of them. There's incredible women. I mean, it would take me, I don't even want to start because I know I would leave a lot of people out who deserve to be there, but there's incredible role models, a lot of women role models who've become dear friends and the amazing thing about them is you just have to reach out and their openness to sharing and You know, they took down those barriers that I really felt in the beginning where a lot of my, honestly, lot of, I mean, I work with National Geographic now and all these big publications. And when I first tried to enter that space, it felt like a lot of barriers and people weren't so open to sharing. And today it feels so different. And actually with all of my, a lot of, you know, women and men colleagues that, I reached out and then they were very generous and shared knowledge, shared opportunities. And I feel a great responsibility now to do that for the next generation. And it was hard getting into some of those doors. And now I really want to open doors for others because I remember how it felt when I began. How did you open those first doors? Oh, I had to be relentless. And, you know, I think part of it was, I was very lucky because I grew up when the digital world started opening up. And I think I just was able to share work. I would apply for grants and I would usually get the grant based on my work if I never had a face-to-face meeting. But typically, if I had, they had a face-to-face meeting at the end where they were judging people in the last, you know, the last phase, and we had face-to-face meetings, they would see me and I was very quiet and I think being shy did not help me. And they would look at me and say, but can you do this work? Even though I had actually shared work from, you know, stories I had been telling. And it was usually, you know, a group of older people and they would look at me and think, she's not going to be able to do this work. And I would never ever get the grant because I don't think I had the confidence at the time. But if it was only, you know, written where I could. use my mind and show my work, then I would get the grant. So I realized there were skills I did not have at that time to break through. but I did have these opportunities when it was just all emailing the work in and doing it remotely, that that's what allowed me my one foot in the door. And I started winning contests, getting my work published. And that led to other, you know, other opportunities. And then I remember the day that the biggest door of all opened up when that was when National Geographic called me and I went and had a face-to-face meeting and I really prepared and realized I need to pretend that I'm confident because that's what they like to see. And even though inside I was dying and really, really very nervous, but I tried. I practiced and that meeting went well and I got my first assignment. But you know, there were stumbling blocks along the way too. You know, I think it's so important to share with everybody that we may get a door opened and maybe it doesn't go well. And that should never stop you from going back again and again. And I think for those of us who've been able to make a career, it's really about persistence. and believing in yourself and going back until that door is finally opened. Yeah, that's a really good point actually about things sometimes going wrong because, you know, we live in a complicated world where traveling isn't always as straightforward as we'd like it to be. And we work with cameras, which are mechanical things which can fail through no fault of our own or, you know, somebody may drop something on your camera, you know, so, but I know if, if, yeah. so hard to make one amazing image. It really is. And to get a unique story takes time and yeah, multiple visits usually. Please excuse this interruption. This episode is supported by Nikon, a world leading provider of imaging products and services. Nikon's regional director, Charlotte Kelmsley says, at Nikon, we pride ourselves on empowering photographers to create images and videos that inspire. We are honored to be partnering with SheClicks and share their ambition of increasing the visibility of women in all aspects of photography. Okay, let's get back to the show. Now you initially were working as a photojournalist and I know you were covering war stories and all sorts of things like that. How did you prepare for that kind of work? I mean, again, I think it took time. I researched everything I could about any story I was telling and then really making connections before I ever set foot anywhere. And I think particularly when you're covering conflicts, it's so important to meet the leaders of any community and let them know who you are. and why you're there and what you intend to do. So I did a lot of research, a lot of going back again and again. And one thing I really started to do as I got further along in my career was to just go and commit to the story and live there and not try to fly in and out, but actually live there and get to know people on the ground and get to understand the nuance. and start to make those connections and most importantly build relationships. You have to. There's nothing that can replace that. you know, and then I think getting beyond telling the stories of the most sensational, the things that I thought my editors wanted in the beginning, which was the dramatic, sensational images and drill down deeper to tell the stories of humanity and, you know, the human story, resilience. beyond those superficial dramatic images, lies really, you know, touching stories that allow us to see ourselves in the everyday to understand that people in these conflicts are just like all of us trying to survive, seeking out a better life, seeking love and hope and, you know, a future. And I think those stories are really important to share. because I think the more sensationalistic images only polarize people more and we all have to push back and share more than just the dramatic images. Yeah, I think if you look at the communities involved, you feel more of a connection to them and therefore you want to help them. You're not thinking about whatever atrocities happen down the road. It's wanting to help them. absolutely. We're there to tell their stories, not the story we think. You know, I mean, think that's the other danger. Honestly, it's so important to research and read everything you can. But but then once you get there, be open to listening and realizing how stories change, how they evolve, because I've seen this so many times where journalists just come in with their own view of what the story will be. They've done all their homework. They've researched. And then, you know, they don't actually allow room for change. And stories change, and they are changing all the time. And it's so important to let the people whose stories that we're telling tell you what the story is to them. Not what we think it is, but actually what is most important. Have you ever had a situation where you've gone in to cover a story and actually your opinion of it or of the situation has completely turned on its head as a result of talking to people? Yeah? Oh, All the time. I really look for that. I think after doing this for so long, I really am aware of that and ask people to push back and question what I talk about, what I've read and what I've seen and is that true? And I think even almost every single story from the Panda story where, you know, that's not a story about conflict, but it's a story about China, you know, basically saving this species from extinction. And when I began that story, was like, everybody, you know, everybody knows what a panda looks like. We all think we know what the story of the panda is. And I really had to take some time to research it and spend time on the ground to realize that. oh It's a very different story than I ever expected. And that happens all the time from stories far away to the stories in my backyard. You know, I read everything I can and realize there's a lot more nuance. There's a lot more work being done. And frankly, there's a lot more, you know, people, the stories are not as polarized and sensational as we make them out to be. that journalists often do that maybe. intentionally, maybe unintentionally, but actually when I, you know, I work in Montana and I realized there's a lot more in common that we all have. And it's so important to share where people are meeting and you know, here it's a shared love of the land and the wildlife. And very often outside media will come in and kind of polarize the perspectives. And it's really important to remind people of how much we do have, that we're working together on these issues and bring people back to that place I just want to back up and talk about Montana, for example, and it's very easy to polarize the issues here. And actually, there's a lot of people working together to protect wildlife. And very often, outside media will come in and sensationalize a lot. And I think it's really important to remember where we are, how we... connect people again, because that's how you're going to make great change I guess it's important to develop a good relationship with your editor as well, because if you really research a story and you put together a series of pictures, you need to trust that they're going to pick the ones that tell your story and not... always an issue, even when you have good relationships. This happens often, almost on every single story where you send your work and it gets written and edited in an entirely different way. Unintentionally, people think they understand the story, but they don't often know the nuance. And it's so critical to Do your best to try to either write the story yourself, ask to write it, or ask to see the story just to give a set of eyes to make sure it's factually correct. But I promise you, it happens on almost every single story that either people are left out, really important characters, so credit is not being given where it should be, or the story is not written correctly. And that is always an issue. It's really hard. yeah, yeah, I can imagine. And I think it's really important for people that are doing this work to get more comfortable asking to see that work. And if something is incorrect, pushing back and asking for corrections to be made. Yeah. So it's, and the people who are, who are writing it or editing it need to be accepting that they need to show it to you and you will make edits to get it right. It's a consistent issue. Yeah, okay. Now a lot of your images are very moving. I'm thinking specifically, or particularly in my head, I always remember the last few moments of Sudan, the rhino. That must be incredibly moving. Do you ever find it hard to focus on capturing the story or do you sometimes get swept up in the moment? Well, to me, that is the story. And I do get swept up in the moment. I, you know, for that moment, for example, back when I took that image of Joseph Wachira leaning in to say goodbye for the last moment, it was so quiet. It was this really eerie, haunting silence all around us. And I didn't want to be. disruptive to that moment. So my camera had this loud metallic sound with the shutter clicking. So I actually only made two images of that moment. I didn't want to disturb that kind of sacred moment. But I think I have a strong sense of like knowing when the moment is happening and when to stop. because I think that we can be very abrasive as photographers and sort of taking a step back can sometimes be very powerful, giving people their space or switching to video, which is silent. Now today we have mirrorless cameras, which is really nice because you can have it on silent mode and I can be less disturbing to the scene there, but um no, I think. I think I'm always aware of the emotions running around me and trying to have lot of empathy and putting my feet into the shoes of others, quite literally, because I think empathy is the wellspring to creativity and, you know, by having empathy, you make a better story. Yeah. How do you choose the projects that you work on? Because I know you're very committed to a lot of environmental issues and also promoting women's, women's place in the world. How do you select the projects you're going to work on when there are so many deserving causes out there? you know, I feel like the projects that I've worked on have selected me. And as you probably know, I commit years, sometimes decades to one issue or story, and I'm relentless and I don't give up and I just keep going back. If I see the story evolving, I basically, you know, I think, I think that I do a lot of vetting and when I commit to a story, it's, you know, in some ways it's either going to take a huge amount of my time or it's going to be a quick story where I can go in. And so I really compartmentalize a lot and figure out what, which stories can I devote myself to truly. And if I feel like I can't do justice, then I will pass it on to to people I think can do justice to those stories. And then there's stories where, you know, the Northern White Rhino, I'm still telling that story and still, you know, hoping for a different conclusion to it, that it's not the story about extinction that I began in 2009. And now the BioRescue project's a part of it. And I am there every single time there's an operation just documenting this, hopefully with a outcome that will surprise us and the world. so, you know, I just, you know, sometimes it's really, yeah, that's a good question. And I think every story, just have to decide, I have the time to commit to it properly? That's kind of how it works. Are there any projects that you've committed to in a heartbeat because they've just, maybe they've said all the right things really well or you just, you had immediate empathy with it. Sure, many. I mean, I think the panda story was one that I committed to immediately and pushed to do. Nat Geo actually um didn't want it because they said it had been done before and that's when I really got to work and had to prove to them that I was going to share something different. And so that's one example. I did a story about saving giraffes from a island that was being flooded out and I knew that that would be an amazing story. The lengths that we go to to save a species and then most recently I was working on Kenya translocating 21 rhinos to a brand new conservancy, Loisaba, and that turned out to be an incredibly dramatic and hopeful story and so Yeah, I mean, I think that I need to know that the partners are ethical, that it's a story that kind of checks a lot of boxes for me, which is not just dramatic, but actually is, you know, community driven, the community's fully engaged, that the partners are all fully engaged. And I kind of vet it and make sure that, you know, everything ethically lines up and that I want to put my my name and put my blessings on it in a way. Yeah. What advice would you give to any women thinking about having a career in photojournalism or perhaps conservation photography? the first step is find a story and a project or a theme that you truly care about because there are gonna be a lot of hard times. It's not easy. There's so many moments you wanna give up. So I think it needs to be more like you need to truly be passionate and love what you're doing. So find something that is, you authentically, you care about. Number one, find something probably close to you that you can keep going back to because it takes work. It takes years of working on one story, one project to see evolution and the story kind of evolving where you'll make a big impact with it. So I really encourage people for so many reasons to find something in their backyard that only you have access to. And then create community around this work. Find friendships and people that you can share your work with. And I mean, I think that's what you're doing. I think there's a lot of nonprofits that are creating community where you can share your work and get honest feedback, because it's really, it's a hard field. It's so profoundly rewarding, but you need grit to be in this. resilience. and resilience, yes. Okay, well I think that's a really good time to go to Six From SheClicks. I've got 10 questions from SheClickers and I'd like you to answer six questions please by picking numbers from one to 10. So could I have your first number please? Number five, if you could go back in time to give yourself some advice, when would you choose to go back to and what advice would you give your younger self and would they listen? That question's from Liz. Liz, I love that question and I actually wish there were a time machine. I think my biggest regrets are, you know, I think it was being too shy in a way to speak up when I knew things weren't right. And I had moments when, I mean, I almost quit this business. And I actually went back to school and almost pursued an entirely different career because I thought that I failed. And the truth is I looked back at that moment and it was actually because I was too shy to speak up and let the people I was working with know that things weren't okay. There were challenges, both ethical challenges to me. There were challenges being a woman in a really dangerous place and just knowing that it wasn't safe. So I took 10 steps back and kind of lost jobs and almost sabotaged my entire career. I ended up going back to school and kind of making a pivot and learning filmmaking, but I look back on that now and wish that I had a stronger voice at that moment and had a community. And I look back and I think that it would have been to create more of a community around me, people that I trusted to lean into in those hard moments and then had more confidence. So yeah, I think a lot of it is really about confidence actually. Yeah, yeah, it often is, think, particularly for women. I think with a bit of experience, your confidence levels grow. Or like you said, you can put on a mask and pretend that you're confident. And then you look back and perhaps you judge your younger self a bit harshly for not knowing that. But yeah, it's tough. It's tough. So could I have your second number, please? Mm, two. Number two, what's it like to be in your shoes now you're recognised for taking such thought-provoking and powerful images that stir emotions? Has it changed the way you think about your work? That question's from Penny. Penny, thank you. I don't think it's really changed much in the sense that I view the next projects with the same intensity and just wanting to do justice to the people who open their lives to me, the stories they share with me. I bring that same passion and kind of commitment to each and every one of them. I feel like I have weights on my shoulder right now because I feel a profound sense of responsibility to open the doors for the next generation. realize I can't do all these stories and that we all, like the issues are so critical right now. The crises are immense and we need more of us actively engaged in sharing these stories that matter. So I feel this deep responsibility to create more opportunities. and community for people all over. I think we all need to be telling these environmental stories that are solutions-based that are shining a light on the champions because the champions are everywhere from whatever the issue is, climate change, extinction, pollution, deforestation, name an issue. There are incredible people on the front lines, really working to... change the trajectory we're currently on. And as storytellers, we have a great opportunity and responsibility to share their stories. So I guess for me right now, I just am thinking about how do I create opportunities, open doors, and create community because more of us need to be engaged in this. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, thank you. Could I have your third number, please? How about... eight? Number eight, do you worry that the demands of ecotourism and wildlife photography holidays are harming fragile ecosystems like the Galapagos Islands? How can people be sure that they're booking the right guides and trips? That question's from Sarah. Sarah, I love that question. I try to talk about this often. I do worry and I do see impacts. And I think it's interesting because if you do a little more work and maybe, you know, do more work to figure out where you can visit, where your tourism dollars are going to have a positive impact and support the communities protecting the wildlife. You can actually, it's like this double edged sword. You can travel and have a positive impact. You can also do the reverse. So I think it is up to the tourist to do a little more work. And frankly, the trips might be more expensive, but maybe we should all slow down, travel less, pay a little bit more to visit the communities where you're making a positive impact. And you know, I actually... did go to Antarctica and felt immediately we should not be here. Why are we all traveling to the most pristine places? Places like Galapagos, Antarctica. Why are we going to these pristine places where, you know, it is, you know, we are having impacts. We definitely are having impacts. And I think we all should be thinking long and hard before we visit these places, you know, and I really, it... horrifies me that we there's this thing like last chance tourism like people are going because they're like I want to see this before it's gone and it's it's like do you though do you want to contributing to that when actually you could be going to places like, Kenya is the perfect example, where they are doing so much right right now where the communities are actively benefiting from from the tourists and not all places in Kenya, know, go do your homework. The Maasai Mara is over, you know, I think there's a lot of over tourism there, but there's a lot of places in Northern Kenya where you can be supporting communities, having a really intimate, incredible experience with not tons of tourists around you. And all your dollars are going back into the community, whether it's giving jobs to the... to guides and the people running the lodges, and there's actually conservation fees that are going into the communities. But I would just say do your homework. Take a little more time to ask your travel agents or do your work. But I love that question. I'm so glad you asked it. Thank you. Can I have your fourth number, please? Four. Number four, okay, which of all the projects you have photographed has had the most personal meaning to you and why? That question's from Janina. well, the ones that I spend the longest with, I think, have the most depth. You know, I'm so deeply engaged with the communities and I hear from them almost every day. I'm in touch. I would definitely say it's those communities in Kenya that I've been working with and everybody who knows my work will know immediately what those stories are. You'll even know the individuals that I'm connected with because I really try to amplify their voices and stories and those would be the ones. Okay, thank you. Right, so your penultimate number please. Um, 10. Number 10, do you think or perhaps worry that the increasing number of fake AI-generated images is undermining the power that photography has to document the world? That question is from Caroline. Caroline, it definitely is. I experienced it recently. I was giving a talk at a conference and all of the speakers ahead of me used AI images to illustrate their talks. I gave my talk and afterwards a young gentleman came up to me and he said, do you know, it took me 15 minutes to really start to believe that your stories were real because I thought all of your images were AI. And I realized immediately the danger because you know, at least there was that trust and relationship in this face-to-face meeting. What is happening when so much of the information is being consumed online? So it is definitely something I think about. I'm working with Adobe on their content authenticity credentials where... you know, we can actually add these credentials to our images, which are telling the companies that are scraping the internet for images, using our images without permission, but telling them they do not have permission. So I think the more all of us can become better versed and understand our rights and, you know, making sure our images are not being used for these tools, but I think getting out there and speaking about it and making authentic images, building trust with your audiences, I think that's what it's going to take. all of us, as I said before, there's not enough of us actively engaged in the issues of the environment, of wildlife, and we all need to be telling stories in our backyards. It starts in our backyards, in our communities because People will know you in your communities and the trust begins at home and then, you know, then grows outwards. But I think it starts with community-based conservation efforts. I think that's a great call to action. Right, so your final number please. one. Number one, what do you think are the best strategies to get noticed in a competitive market? That question's from Virginia. Back to authenticity. Stop trying to create for what you think people want to know. One thing I have noticed is a lot of younger, you know, people trying to make a break in this are spending so much time speaking to camera, trying to, you know, be an influencer. And I don't think their content is very good, actually. I think Learn to become a good storyteller first and foremost. Create powerful stories. Learn the art and craft of what we do. Spend real time getting the trust building the relationships, working on one story and do it well. Again, back to the same thing I've been saying. Work in your backyard. Tell a story over time. When I say over time, make it a year minimum, hopefully even longer. tell a story and then become the voice for it. But I think the problem I see is people are so concerned with their image becoming this voice. There is nothing that can beat the depth of a story that has, when you're sharing something, building those relationships that are authentic, people can feel it in their heart and know it's real and nothing can top that. So that is my best advice to you. Great, thank you very much. Well, Ami thank you for joining me today. It's been absolutely wonderful chatting with you. Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you, thank you. Bye bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. Special thanks to everybody who sent in a question. You'll find links to Ami's website and social media channels in the show notes. I'll be back with another episode soon, so please subscribe to the show and tell all your friends and followers about it.