Dom Shaw: 0:05

I already knew what I wanted to shoot. The very first wedding I ever shot. You know, in black and white film, I was drawn to the seemingly insignificant moments. I was drawn to the characters, the humour and the connections I already knew. But then as soon as you go, I mean, it wasn't for us, because social media wasn't a thing, but if you're doing it now, as soon as you go on social media, as soon as you have money, mortgages to pay, you can get bogged down, super bogged down in like and what you're doing, and forget what you really, truly love about photography.

Angela Nicholson: 0:38

Welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson and I'm the founder of sheclicks, which is a community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I talk with women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them and how they got to where they are. Now, this episode is with Dom Shaw, a former Fujifilm X Photographer, or ambassador, who specialises in documentary style wedding photography and is co-founder of York place studios. She's travelled the world shooting Street and documentary photography, and regularly photographs weddings and families with her trademark style for Dom, a great photograph doesn't just catch the eye, it grips the heart. Hi, Dom. Thanks for joining me on the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast today.

Dom Shaw: 1:18

Ah, thanks for inviting me.

Angela Nicholson: 1:20

Oh, you're very welcome. It'sgreat to see you. Now, it was your granddad who introduced you to photography, wasn't it? How did that happen?

Dom Shaw: 1:27

Gosh,yeah. Well, it's kind of always been in the family photography. My mum, she did photography, and then she(was) taught by my granddad, and from there, we all just love photography. And then there was Liam, obviously, and it's just been in the family, like just taking pictures, just generally, just around, like there was always tonnes and tonnes of, like, albums around a photograph. And it was always kind of something in the background, I guess. But at first it felt like my mom was kind of the photographer of the family. My grandpa, actually, he, he had a beautiful collection of cameras. He was a family solicitor, actually, but he his hobby, his love, he would, he actually, sadly died before we got into photography in the way that we have. And he, he would be so proud to know what we've achieved. But he absolutely adored photography, and some of the pictures he's taken, like, kind of blew me away, because I was like, Oh, he has the same kind of sentiments of how we shoot. We didn't. Perhaps it came from my mother, or perhaps it was just natural. But, you know, it's, it's a, clearly a family thing.

Angela Nicholson: 2:32

Oh, that's lovely. I bet, I bet your granddad would be really, really proud. Was your mum a hobbyist photographer or a professional?

Dom Shaw: 2:38

Hobby, hobby, hobby. She was a teacher, but she again, I think because of my grandpa, it was just in the family, and we've always just taken pictures. I remember the very first picture I officially took, you know, was we went to Tunisia, and I had a little, you know, like one of those film cameras, but, like, one of those compact film cameras, and it was blue, and it was kind of rubbish, but it was, like, it was my first proper camera, like I wasn't allowed, like, the proper, proper ones my grandpa had because, you know, they were complicated and had, you know, F numbers and stuff. This one was just like a little compact one. But I remember, I took a photograph of a lady, and she was moulding clay in the corner. I was very, very young. I like, I look at the pictures now, and wow, yeah, it was, it was, literally, I was probably five or six, and it was but I remember taking it because it was the first time that I consciously taken a photograph like it consciously gone. This is something, this is interesting. This is something that I want to document, aside from family, and I took it.

Angela Nicholson: 3:35

Wow, you were about five years ahead of me, because the photograph I remember taking I would have been about 10. So if you were doing it about five, you're a streets ahead. So kudos.

Dom Shaw: 3:45

It was just something that we really loved. And then when I went to college and university, it was just inevitable, because it was just it was only when I went to college that I started doing it in the dark room, and then my parents, bless them, set up me a dark room in the house. So I used to go up into the attic and develop the films upstairs in my family house as well. So I had, like, I went to college and I had it, and then when I went home, I also was developing and printing and developing my own negs. And it was so exciting and so exhilarating and and I just, I remember the very first time the picture developed in the developer. And I was like, Oh, wow, I am hooked. Like, really, really hooked. And then I'd never look back.

Angela Nicholson: 4:25

What a bonus to have a dark room in your attic. Because, you know, the big pain of having a dark room at home, generally, was like it was in the bathroom, and then you had to spend ages, you know, screening off the windows and making it dark. And then, of course, you get all that done, and then someone's hammering on the door saying, I need to come in.

Dom Shaw: 4:38

Exactly No, this was in the attic, and I still got the enlarger, and my parents recently moved and the enlarger is still in the attic.

Angela Nicholson: 4:46

Oh, that's fantastic. And was it always documentary photography for you?

Dom Shaw: 4:51

Yes, yeah, that was what I naturally kind of was drawn to when, when I first started, it was just, I just felt. And kind of feel much less now, but very, very kind of awkward, kind of like directing people, it just felt so much more natural to me to photograph them in a documentary way. I remember I did my first wedding when I was I was 16. I was 16 years old, and I was doing so there was a main photographer, but my mom's friend had said, Oh, can you come along and take some pictures? I know you're into it, and you're at college. At college. So I went along with my film camera, all in black and white, and I shot it. And I was interested in all the little human interactions that were happening and all the real the real story, if you will, you know, like, so he was photographing people, I remember vividly under a tree, and he was doing all the groups. And I was like, it's a bit boring. I was like, but around over here, there's an actual, real story going on with the, you know, these there was a flower girls, and they were playing around with the dad. And I was like, I'm much more drawn to that than I ever was for the groups. So for me, I was just like, yes, I want to photograph it in a natural, candid, real way I'm I don't like being in front of the camera. You know, I have done it. I think it's a really good thing to do, is to get yourself in front of the camera and be aware of what it's like, particularly if you're going to do portraits and groups. But just in general, it's a good experience, but it's not my thing to do. So the idea of capturing what was going on outside of the main beats, the main moments, attracted me, yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 6:22

And rather than having those posed moments, and you know, if you take just a fraction too long, it all starts to get a bit stayed, you're, you're photographing spontaneity. And it's always going to be, you know, of the moment.

Dom Shaw: 6:33

Yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be fun, it's going to be real, it's going to show the true relationships between the people. And I'm really interested in that. And when I was, when I was little, I was really drawn to the little moments, whether it was a TV show or a book or just family life, I was always drawn to and so was Liam. We're brother and sister, and we obviously had the same upbringing and we were, we were both drawn to the little, tiny moments that were happening, the seemingly insignificant moments of life, as opposed to the big, big moments, like, you know, birthday parties and all that. It wasn't the blowing out the candles, it was the little, tiny things that were happening that, you know, maybe my mom was, was cooking something in the kitchen and and that kind of, though I'd like to bottle that, as opposed to, like, the big things that were happening.

Angela Nicholson: 7:21

Yeah, because when you think about various events in your life, often it's those little moments that really kind of make it special for you. Because there's with a birthday party, like you say, there's someone's going to blow out the cake, there's going to be some presents that might be past the parcel. They're kind of expected. But then it's the other things that make it special.

Dom Shaw: 7:38

Yeah, when, like, I remember my grandma. And I don't, I don't remember, like, the big things that happened. I don't, I don't even really remember it at my birthday parties. But I remember sitting on the couch and her giving me an animal bar and as watching, you know, Wimbledon together, just like little cuddles upon the sofa and, you know, and the smell of her, you know, just just little, small things about her, as opposed to, like, the big event, and even to the case of, you know, like they'll, they would give you a big present. I remember what the big present was, but I remember how I felt being around them.

Angela Nicholson: 8:11

Yeah, oh, that's lovely. Well, I was gonna ask you, when did you realise that photography could be your career? But it sounds like it was always going to be your career.

Dom Shaw: 8:20

Yeah, I think it was, I mean, I'm also into music. I used to do a lot of singing. I play the clarinet, I play the saxophone, the tele saxophone. So I love, I do love music. I love creativity, just in general. And when I was little, I have, I was by the time I could read like and I read quite early, and I was always searching for my career, like it was, it was like the thing I wanted to do. And so I was always searching for it. And I love to write as well. And I was like, Oh, maybe I could be a writer. And I was always, and it was always in that creative I never considered anything outside of creativity. So for me, I was just searching for the creativity. And then when I found photography, when I really, really found it was, was when I in the dark room, when I was at college, that when, when I was like, Oh, this is it. And I had like, a spark of like, this is what I'm going to do. This is going to be my career. And because I've been searching for it for so long, throughout my entire school life, and before I honestly, it was, it was a really kind of strange little kid, like looking for her career. But I just wanted, I guess there was part of me that knew that when you, like, you do a lot of of work, you know, you a lot of our time is spent doing our job. And so I wasn't looking for the the money side. I was just looking for this thing that was gonna I was gonna enjoy the most that I was gonna have, because it can take up so much of my time. Why not it be something that I truly loved, funny, my husband's the same. He was also doing the same funny little kids that we were like. He was hitting sound and lighting, and we were both and Liam as well. He was, he was very much into illustration and graphics. So we were all searching for our. Creative path before photography and videography for my husband, kind of found us, and you realised that you like, you know, photography was your thing.

Angela Nicholson: 10:08

What made you go to wedding photography rather than be, say, you know, reportage photographer, documentary photographer or a news reporter?

Dom Shaw: 10:14

It's a really good question. So I was actually doing a fine art photography degree in Sunderland, and I was really enjoying it. I used to go to the library, and I used to like, you know, get involved in all the books. And I was like, Oh, look at the Martin Parr and Harry Gruyaert. And I was like, wow, these are so great. And I loved it. And I thought I was going to do more of a fine art photography kind of career, but I did a wedding, so I'd done the one when I was 16, and, like, I really enjoyed that, but then I did another wedding, and I was like, Okay, there's more to this is, like, sanctioned street photography. I can go out and I can take pictures of people, and also wedding photography really matters. And I do like photographing on the street, but there's something about wedding photography is that they these photographs really matter to people. And for me, photographs really matter and, you know? And as I said, like all my childhood and my mom had all these beautiful big albums of photographs, and I wanted to have beautiful big albums photographs for people to be able to give them, not just things on the street, yeah, or any kind of fine art photography, really. I just wanted something that really, really mattered and and I loved it. I mean, we got the we got the studio, and I also did, you know, at first, when we first got the studio, it was kind of to be honest about paying the bills at first, because it was, I was 21 when I got the studio, and so I was just trying to make money the best we could. You know, I did. We tried everything as well. We were doing, like portraits, we were doing jewellery, we were doing still, you know, just little still lifey things, anything that we could get our little paws on and but we started doing the weddings. And at first, even though I had this background of fine art photography and documentary and reportage and what I really loved, because all of a sudden I had this heavy weight of a mortgage to pay for the first time in my life, you know, basically, because I've been at university before then. So when I had that kind of heavy weight on me, I started to go, Okay, what does the couples want? What do the clients want? How can I how can I serve them? So I ended up doing all the portraits and all the groups. And, you know, we were successful, like we enjoyed it, but it was just about getting, you know, getting them done. And then we were, we started to, like, develop our style, and think, oh, maybe we could not use flash and again, still playing around. But for us, it was just, we were doing so many weddings, you know, like, I mean, for me, anyway, like, like, 50-60, weddings a year, you know, as well as the studio stuff, it was, it was a lot. And I said to Liam, I feel like I'm and I was, you know, in my 20s, I was like, I feel like I'm a ghost. I feel like I'm going and I am going to a wedding and watching other people live, and I'm just doing what I have to do to get what they want serve the couples. And I was like, but you know, you know, throughout my career, I'd always wanted something that that I've just enjoyed. And I was like, this isn't quite right now. So we talked about it, and we decided to, one, reduce the weddings down, and two, really figure out what we really, really loved about photography. And then I went back to my roots, so I stopped thinking about things in a more commercial way. And I was like, What did I really love? And what did Liam really love? And was like, well, creativity we loved, like street photography. So we went back out on the streets, and we started shooting street photography again, and that started bleeding into our work. And then we started getting couples that connected with what we did, and that made us very happy.

Angela Nicholson: 13:54

I bet. Yeah, that's fantastic. So you tried lots of things, because one of the things business people sometimes do, or are often advised to do, is to sit down and write a business plan. But when you're starting out, particularly with something creative like photography, how do you know what you want to do and where that will take you and what response you're going to get? So trying lots of different things and then honing it down, and then it sounds like you sort of came up with a plan. Let's, let's, you know, pare back the number of weddings. Let's do the documentary style, that kind of thing. That's when you sort of started to cement what you do.

Dom Shaw: 14:27

Yes. So at first we were like, looking at photographers, you know. And we were thinking, okay, so what is going on in the kind of the documentary photography, kind of the side? And I was like, okay, was a lot of black and white, and it's quite stoic. And I was like, I love black and white documentary photography. I do. I love black and black and white documentary wedding photography, but, but it's not really me, and it's not really Liam. We're kind of a little bit more tongue in cheek, a bit more humorous and fun, I guess. So we were like, You know what? We're going to shoot mostly colour. We set up a set of rules, or a set of rules that we were like, Okay. Were going to follow these rules too, because these are things that we truly loved. So I guess it was kind of like a business plan. But it wasn't because it was just a just creativity. It was just fun. And I remember we had this, it was a book by the Beatles called Let it be. And we looked at the colours in that, and we were like, Oh, this is beautiful. And this was all colour, like, this is beautiful. This, this lives. This feels like it's very old now, but it feels authentic, and it feels of the time because it hasn't aged, because it's film. And we're like, okay, so we want to do something that's very, very strict back. We want it to feel like that. It's just, there's no over retouching. There's no over complications to the edit. And we want it to be, we're not going to Photoshop things to make them, quote, unquote, perfect. You know, we're going to, we're going to allow the pictures to have them. And basically, we're going to compose. So everything in the frame is going to be important, and that is going to be composition is the language of storytelling. So therefore, if we show through the composition the story we want to tell, then we'll be able to give the couples an image that hopefully they'll really resonate with, you know, so it'll have it won't just be like, Oh, I like this. It'll be, Oh, wow. Like, we really wanted to feel it.

Angela Nicholson: 16:21

Please excuse this interruption. This podcast is supported by Fujifilm, one of the best known photography bands in the world. Fujifilms, award winning X series and GFX system. Cameras and lenses are suited for all types of photographers and videographers. Each has been developed utilising experience gain for more than 90 years in the industry, featuring the unique film simulation mode that everybody knows and loves. Okay, let's get back to the show. I love the idea of writing down rules, you know, coming up with a strategy that you're going to follow, so that you always produce the work that you want and that keeps you interested.

Dom Shaw: 16:59

Well, because there was two of us as well. It was we wanted to keep everything consistent. So we didn't want it to be like, you know, like we didn't need a third photographer in this mix. So the rules were kind of like, we wanted to be colour. We wanted to have no flash, because we wanted to everything feel like it's in the same world. And we loved street photography, and we loved films that didn't, you know, that used the colours of the room. We like things to be very clean, so in terms of composition, so no heads on heads. It was very These were, these are rules that we still keep to to this day. So or imagery you can like draw around it, and you'll be able to each person has got a slight separation about it. And we like pictures that are also kind of beautiful documentary. So even when it's like slightly more like black humour, it was still beautifully shot. That was kind of one of the things we wanted to do. We wanted to make sure that there was as little as possible without double chins, because we had this thing about, like, documentary, doesn't? It can be beautiful. And there was a time when it was like so portraits were beautiful and documentary was more raw and real, and that's great, but that's not what we loved. We loved it to be beautiful. We wanted people to put them on the wall as pieces of art. And we felt like if it was something that was quite more vulgar, I guess then it wouldn't be something they put on the wall. So for us, the sentimentals of portraits, of making sure that no double chin, and how they shop. Yes, you can do that in a portrait, but you can also do it in documentary. Just depends on where you stand to how you can create those pictures. And that was another one of our rules. So I'm sure there was others, but we kept very carefully to these rules, and that helped us develop our style.

Angela Nicholson: 18:44

That's a really good point, actually, about wanting to, you know, make people look beautiful, because at the end of the day, they are your clients. And you may take the most hilarious picture that everybody, apart from the people in it, really like, you know, and they don't like it because they look really ugly, or, you know, they think they look wrinkly, or something like that, but it's that they are the client, so you have to please them still.

Dom Shaw: 19:05

Yeah. Well, we don't never want to take anything that's unkind. So even when the image has perhaps an element that could be taking the mickey out of the person, we don't we don't want to take the mic out person. We want to take mickey out the situation. So if it is something like that. Then we will cover their faces. We will cover their eyes. We will hide them. So it becomes about, for instance, this is photograph of someone falling back off a bench and their legs up in the air. Now we you could have done a photograph where you could have, you know, she fell off. It was hilarious. And there was all kinds of ways of shooting that to make it look like, you know, her face in it, and you know, she'd been all red in the face, and she'd been drinking under the dub, no having a play fight these two people, it was hilarious. And there's, and you could do those, but it but the way of shooting without showing her face meant that this image was universal, and it meant it wasn't poking fun at her. I mean. Actually, she ended up commenting on the photograph on our Instagram and going, that's me. That's cool. You know, if she feels happy with me with that, but would she have commented if she could have seen her face and she felt like it was an unkind photograph? Probably not.

Angela Nicholson: 20:13

Yeah, that's a really good distinction. I think the situation, rather than the person, is what you need to be poking fun at. So what made you decide to work with your brother?

Dom Shaw: 20:22

Well, I mean, I've always looked up to him, like, I mean, he's literally older than me and but also just he's always had such a creative mind at every stage when he was even younger. Like, all the illustrations that he did, I was just always kind of like, wow. And I remember him saying to me, I was like, wow. These drawings are amazing, Liam, and he was like, well. And I was like, they really are. And he was like, well. And I was like, but you're getting all these amazing grades and, you know, the best in the class. And he said to me, it's not about being best in the class. You know, there's a much bigger world out there. You want to be the best in the world. And I was like, Wow. I was like, whoa. I never thought about it like that. I was like, it's not just about being the best in the class. It's about being the best you can possibly be. And, you know, there is, it's not just a small I guess I was thinking small fry, and he opened my mind up to the fact that the whole world was an option. I mean, before, it was before kind of, you know, the internet, really. So to me, I just wasn't thinking as big as he was, he was literally he was comparing himself to the best. And that little bit of information was just mind blowing to me, that I had to compare myself to the very best photographers in the world, not, you know, my peers. So I've always admired him. And then we did a project when I was at university, and we really enjoyed working together. And at the end of it, the tutor just put wonderful work. It was illustration work as well, which was basically illustration and photography together and creativity. And he was like, wonderful, wonderful work. You guys are a fantastic partnership. You should consider working together. And I don't think anything of it, because, you know, I was at university and things. But when the studio came up, I thought, oh, Liam, how do you feel about working together and collaborating? And then he said, Yes, and that's how it happened. But it wasn't, it wasn't a plan. It just sort of happened. But it was a wonderful thing to happen together and to be able to figure out how we shoot and what we want to achieve. And everything was done. I can't imagine doing it with I am. It's, it's, it's a really perfect partnership, to be honest. And people always say, do we argue? And say, No, we don't. And like, if, and if, at any point we're discussing a photograph, and we're like, oh, should this be in our, you know, in our main gallery, and one of us is and if neither of us are passionate about it, then it's not going in. And if one of us is really, really passionate, no one will listen. But most of the time, like 99 times out of 100, it will be that we just agree.

Angela Nicholson: 22:52

You keep each other on your toes. But when you're actually shooting, you know, do you ever sort of look at each other and you kind of get the just, yeah, you know, what you're doing is great. I need to go and do something else, you know. Or he'll go like that, and, oh yeah, I'll go and photograph that.

Dom Shaw: 23:07

Yeah. So we have, kind of, considering we're not twins, we have kind of, my Twinny ability, I think, as we've, like, obviously, known each of all our lives. Worked together for nearly 20 years now we we can just give each other a look, or a little tiny hangs the gesture, and we'll know, you know, we'll know. And I never go and shoot what Liam is photographing, and vice versa. Because for us, we don't say photography by Domini, we don't say photography by Liam. There's no ego. We're just really happy that one person gets the picture in the book. We didn't say this picture is by this person. It doesn't matter, you know, it's just sometimes one of us, mostly me will take the sacrifice of like doing like groups or portraits to ensure the documentary continues. And I'm just really happy that we have those pictures, and vice versa, so we don't have that kind of like, yeah, ego or like, I want the picture. Like, it's just never been that way. It's just always about growing the brand together.

Angela Nicholson: 23:59

Now you mentioned in passing, your book that you and Liam have written, Is This Something, which is a guide to capturing unposed images at a wedding? What led you to write that?

Dom Shaw: 24:09

Well, it was COVID times, and we were obviously separated from each other, but we were still talking online, because Liam and I talk all the time, even when we're not we haven't got a project, we're still talking. We've always found that the best, best time for us, like in creating, is when we're together. That's what we're doing this week. We're together creating again, and we'll have long, long, long conversations. So it was COVID, we were kind of in that kind of feeling of really miss chewing. I really missed photography, all the things that we'd written, all the workshops, all the talks we'd done in different countries, we were just reminiscing, and we were like, wow, we've really said some stuff. Wouldn't it be cool if we put it in a book? And we were like, well, we have time. Let's start. So we so we did that for the year, and then we continued and just kept going until it was written. And it started off as being kind of a. A, like, a romantic set of, kind of like, you know, these are all the beautiful lines that we've written, because there's some really gorgeous stuff. Like, I'm really proud that in our book there's only, like, a couple of things that are not our quotes. We write everything. So we kind of had put this together, and then we started to realise, you know, what, this would be really useful for other photographers. Because, you know, wedding photography is really hard. It's a really hard thing to do, you know, so to have kind of like a blueprint of of how, how you can shoot a wedding as well, it's actually it goes from, like the getting ready all the way to the first dance and beyond. So you can read it that way, or you can just take you can dip it in and out. You can just dip it out of it, and you've got these lovely contact sheets as well. Wedding Photography is so difficult, we wanted to give people an opportunity to be able to read something that hopefully will help them. And documentary in general, people assume that you just kind of come across a photograph and and that you've got lucky, but you can't do that with documentary, and you can't do that with the style that we do, because you can't get that lucky, you know? You have to do it consistently throughout the day. So there's only a couple of times in our entire career that we've looked upon a photograph, you know, and it's just been there most of the time. You've got to find, you've got to find the position, you've got to sense the chemistry, you've got to sense spontaneity, and then you've got to get into position you cannot just see something from a distance and go click, because that's that's when the composition isn't right. So the book is, is, is, hopefully, a way of just helping people. That's all we wanted to do, help and inspire, and give people kind of the opportunity to look through something that will like, understand that how the process is and how our mind was working. And because there's contact sheets, you can hopefully see, because we love contact sheets, I grew up literally with contact sheets. Like that was what we used to do. We used to develop the contact sheet before you chose your print. So you and I thought was great, because you could see the the mindset of the photographer. And so that's what we did with our with ours, we created contact sheets so people could see the mindset of how we were taking the images.

Angela Nicholson: 27:11

You've written 300 pages about it in your book. But what would be your top tip, your top advice for anyone thinking about starting in documentary style, wedding photography?

Dom Shaw: 27:21

Well, I think first of all, you just got to get out and start shooting like that is absolutely key. Go start shooting. Still, what when you when you've gotten you around like, what? What do you want to shoot? Because this is the really interesting thing about, I mean, photography in general, but documentary, you would put like. So we've got a room, we've got a bunch of photographers, and they've all got the same camera. All got the same lens, so everything's the same consistency. What do you go and shoot? What is the thing that piques your interest? You know, that's how, why the book is called, is this something it's like? Is this a moment? Is this something I can capture, and that that would be my biggest advice, is find what you're drawn to, because that is the key, because that's what I love about photography, because it's just a box, and instead of us all going and photographing the same thing, we will all find humour, find feel affection, feel love for something different in the room, and that is what is great. So you've got to find yourself. And I think you can't find yourself instantly. You've got to, you've got to work at it and understand that it's a process. It was a very long process for me and Liam about what we enjoyed. And sometimes you already know how you want to shoot you kind of you've only forgotten. So what, really, what made you pick up that camera in the first place? And I think that's really important. What made you pick up the camera? Why? Though I look back and what, what? What did I the initial picture? It was like, okay, so it's the little it's the woman in the clay, because I was interested in, like human behaviour and connections and the same when I was that the wedding, you know, if I look back at the at the my career, when I first started, I already knew, I already knew what I wanted to shoot, the very first wedding I ever shot, you know, in black and white film, I was drawn to the seemingly insignificant moments. I was drawn to the characters, the humour and the connections I already knew. But then as soon as you go, I mean, it wasn't for us, because social media wasn't a thing, but if you're doing it now, as soon as you go on social media, as soon as you have money mortgages to pay, you can get bogged down, super bogged down in like and what you're doing, and forget what you really, truly love about photography. And what I truly loved about photography was there, you know, in in the books, you know, I was going and that's another reason why we wrote the book, is because we love books, and that's how we learnt. And you can pour over the photographs and really get involved in them. I. I mean, that's a really great thing. And the thing about books as well is that you can read something when you first start in your career. So this is another thing. What we love about, hopefully people love about the book is that they can read it and they can learn, and they're gonna be like, Um, wow. Like, on an initial level, I've learned x about the book. You know, I've learned my the beginnings of my documentary, but then you read it again in a few years, and you're like, Oh, wow. Okay, there's much more to this than I realised. And then you go back in over five years time, and you read it again, and you're like, oh, right, okay, there was other things that I couldn't quite understand at this time, you know, that have, that have clicked. And that's what I found when I was reading books when I was younger, and when I was looking and poring over books, you appreciate them on different levels at different times of your career.

Angela Nicholson: 30:47

So the book's called, Is This Something? Where can people find it if they'd like to buy it?

Dom Shaw: 30:52

So currently we have it online. On our website, it's seemingly insignificant.com and also it is available at Fauci films, House of photography. They have a small selection left, and you can just go upstairs and you can find them there. We sell the book internationally, 32 countries now, which is pretty crazy. And so, yeah, we've literally two have gone today to Singapore and America. So we are overwhelmed with, like, the fact that people are buying it from all over the world. It's, it's, it's amazing and incredible. And I never, I never get tired of seeing people send me, you know, the lovely things that they write about how it just gave them some confidence. You know, some of them were like, I never thought of it that way, which is just a wonderful way. Or, you know, it felt like it gave me permission to do something that the way I wanted to do, because it's not the how to shoot like your play studios. It is how to create documentary images. And that can be any way you want. And then there's inspiration involved in that. But at the same time, you know it is not the you know is not the blueprint of your pursuits. It's the blueprint, I guess, of creating documentary images and how to not, you're not just getting lucky, you know, that's just, that's the most important thing is to create things on a consistent basis. And at every point when you get kind of, like, it's difficult, you get kind of bogged down, you know? And like, everyone does it, you know, you're at a wedding, and you've, you've you've done the ceremony, you've done the getting ready. You've actually been shooting for many, many hours before it's the reception, and you've had to do the groups. And then there's this window of time to do the reception, which we adore. We love the window of time for the reception, but that's because that's our favourite thing to do, and we know how to get images. But at the same time, it's so difficult to keep that energy, that mindset, and so to give, to give people some help, and to help them to get through and to get past the kind of the I'm stuck, you know, yeah, and that's very, very and a lot of people Take the book to weddings, and then in the kind of the lunch break, they'll go, and then they'll flick through, and they'll find, because it's they'll, if they want some inspiration on juxtapositions, you know, they'll, they'll go through, and they're like, Okay, that that's just reignited my brain. Or if they genuinely just need some a little bit of, you know, a little bit of inspiration shot, you know, they just need that to be like, okay, yeah, okay, I'm ready again. You know, particularly when you work on your own. You know, Liam and I bring the inspiration and give the shot of energy to each other. But it must be so hard. I now have shot weddings on my own during COVID, and it's harder to like, keep going, keep that mindset. Don't be looking at the back of your camera, worrying and thinking, Did I get it? Because Forget it. Move on. And if you did get it, you like the dog. I got this great picture. Also, whilst you're just being like, Yay, I got this picture. So many photographs will have passed by. So try and stay in the moment and stay shooting. And that way, when you finish, you can look through them, but otherwise, all it will do is give you too much like looking at the photograph, or it will really bum you out, and you'll be just like, oh, and you'll be worrying about it. And the most important thing in wedding photography is just to stay present and keep shooting, particularly with documentary.

Angela Nicholson: 34:15

Okay, well, thank you for that, and congratulations on the book. It sounds fantastic. I think that's a really good point to go to Six from SheClicks. I've got 10 questions from SheClickers, and I'd like you to answer six questions by picking numbers from one to 10, please. So could I have your first number, please, five, please?

Dom Shaw: 34:33

Number five.

Angela Nicholson: 34:34

When do you know when a shot just grabbed you by the heart as you take it, when you look at the back of the camera, or once you get it downloaded that questions from Liz,

Dom Shaw: 34:43

Oh, thank you. Liz, that's an awesome question. Love it. Glad I went to you, as was just saying, I don't look at the back of the camera, but there is something that happens, like, when you I'm when you get a picture that you really, really, truly know is, is great. You get like this, like, Spark. Oh. Of like, energy, and it's almost like, you know, you're like, oh, that that was something that was good. You know, the it's the, is this something? And you're like, yes, yes, that definitely was. And that is the moment, I think, when you when you realise, but then you don't, I don't look at it until later on in the camera, because that, that little spark of energy that you get, that little, oh, that was, that was something, I think that was a really good picture. Then carry that energy that, like, love for that photograph through, and then you'll get more pictures. I am, I remember me and Liam were shooting street photography in Japan, and we were having a bit of a, like, a rough morning. We were like, you know, the thing about street photography when you were winning photographer, is that if you don't get, like, a couple of pictures in the morning, you're just really annoyed because you, like, that's not how it works in wedding photography. You've got to get pictures all the time. So what's going on? So, so we had, we had a little break, and we had a little coffee, and then we walked out of the coffee shop and we were like, there's, there's pictures everywhere. So we just need that energy boost. So use that energy boost from feeling that you got that picture to take more pictures.

Angela Nicholson: 36:03

Okay, top tip. Right, your second, number please?

Dom Shaw: 36:07

Two.

Angela Nicholson: 36:08

Number two, your love of photography started early. What is the first photograph you remember seeing? That's another one from Liz, actually. And you touched on, well, you remember the first image you photograph?

Dom Shaw: 36:20

Yeah, the first image I ever saw. Wow. Well, I mean, I was just I loved, and my daughter, actually, bless her, is the same. I just love anything that's visual. And I can see her at the moment, and she's like, the programmes that she's watching, all the books that she's seen, like anything that's really, really colourful and visual and funny she's she's connecting with and I'm like, again, I really see her, like a little mini me. And I'm like, This is so cool, because I remember doing this myself. But, like, posters, you know, anything graphical. I was like, wow, finals, you know, my mom and dad had a beautiful collection of vinyls that was, that was something the photographs on there. I can't think of a specific image, but just generally, kind of like colourful, eared like, images like that. I remember my my grandpa had some wonderful photographs as well, one of my grandma that was so cool. It was like a portrait image of her. She was wearing glasses, and it was just blue sky behind, and it was just a really interesting shot of her. And I remember thinking, Oh, that's how he sees her. That's That's lovely. And I think that is about photography. Is like you get to show people how how you see them,

Angela Nicholson: 37:32

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a good point. Okay, so your third number, please?

Dom Shaw: 37:38

One.

Angela Nicholson: 37:39

Number one, where in the world would you most like to photograph on the street? That question's from Janina.

Dom Shaw: 37:46

Wow, I've done some really great ones. I'm so fortunate. I mean, I love Japan. That was amazing. Cuba was one of the best experiences I've ever had. Where do I want to go? That's really tough. I mean, in terms of maybe Vietnam, like, yeah, I'm really open to anywhere, actually, like, because I've done, like, the big ones that I wanted to do, like, Japan was a bit of a dream. Like, who doesn't want to go to electric city? You know, it's so good, I would really recommend it. Like, it is, just like the colours and kind of the the oddities. Because the thing about shooting locally is that it's very easy to just kind of like, think that everything is normal and boring. Like, you want to see it through kind of a child's eyes and be like, Oh, wow. This is really, really cool. And I'm like, doing that in the moment with Maisie, I can see that she's seeing everything is interesting. Like, we go to the park and she's like, whoa. This is the best thing ever. And that feeling that kind of like, oh, wow, that's so good, is like, when you go to a foreign country, when you go to, like, Japan, or you go to Cuba, you're like, Well, this is a different kind of place. And at first, everything's magical. Actually, this is in the book, everything's magical. And then you kind of, you sort of getting normalised to it. And that's something that we, we as photographers, need to not, do not get normalised. We want to kind of feel like the the kind of the absurdity of life, you know, like and enjoy that. So it can, you can shoot anywhere. And I, oh, there's also somewhere in in Ireland, I want to go and shoot. I can't remember the place was, but that sounded really, really fun as well. So I There isn't any well at this that's kind of like, I'm absolutely like, I must go and shoot there, because I've done some of my favourites. And I also went to Sri Lanka. That was extraordinary, going to the marketplace and how everyone was and what they were doing. It was just really interesting. But I would say Vietnam as an as an answer somewhere that I'm hoping to go as soon as I can.

Angela Nicholson: 39:43

Okay, yeah, I know someone who's just been actually, and she had a fantastic time, so recommend it. Your fourth number please?

Dom Shaw: 39:50

Uh, 10.

Angela Nicholson: 39:52

Number 10 when time is precious during an event and you see there's an opportunity for a great shot, but you have to wait for the right thing to happen in the frame. How do you judge the time you can invest in that shot? It's a great question.

Dom Shaw: 40:05

Amazing question. This is something that we talk about in the book, because there, there is, yeah, there is different. It depends on how long, like, in terms of you can't give yourself too much time for something if there's loads of things going on, but if it's like a reception and things have slowed down, then you can give longer periods of time to it, which is something that we always think about, but it's, yeah, it's like, and also, which is, like, the risk and reward kind of thing, how good do you think the photograph is going to be? So I am myself and Liam. We're not necessarily kind of fishers. You know, in photography, in wedding photography is actually really difficult to be a fisher, because you don't have that much time in street. You can wait all day, you can sit, you can come out, you can be like I am going to wait for days until this and this matches up. But for us, the joy and the joy and spontaneity photography is what I really love. So I like it to be spontaneous. So I kind of go hunting out images. So I don't lay I don't wait very long. I will kind of give it a small amount of time, because I because I enjoy kind of the hunt. I enjoy the hunt of the photograph. I enjoy the the and I can make something work from just a composition. So I don't, doesn't have to have a big moment. Mean, leave actually having this conversation the other day, and it was like, he was talking about was, like, moment is the most important thing. And I was like, I really like an image that just has no big moments at all, barely anything happening really, but just a lovely flow to the image. Like it's a piece of art. I really like that. It doesn't have to have anything big in it. So for me, that can be created without needing to wait too long, because it's just the tiny little things that are happening. It's also really fun when something wild happens in front of you, you know, and you're able to compose it. You're literally in standing in the right place, you've composed it roughly, and you're like, Oh, this is gonna work. And then something bigger happens. That's, that's pretty awesome, too.

Angela Nicholson: 42:03

Yeah, it is funny. You know, sometimes you're saying about in your street, you can wait for, like, someone to walk into the frame, or something like that. And then I've been out with SheClickers, and you know that you need a person in that frame say, Oh, can you just just walk in? And it's not the same, because you've contrived it. But it's also hilarious because they're doing it. And inevitably they try and do a funny walk, or, you know, they do something else. So it turns into a slightly different thing, and then suddenly somebody does walk into the frame, and then you've got, you've got that moment, you know, a person who was not part of the group, and then that becomes more special. But the whole event is fun.

Dom Shaw: 42:36

Yeah, absolutely. I think, for for photographing, when you falsify something, it just doesn't have the same magic for me, like, I just don't like it. Like, I understand, and I know it shouldn't, but it sort of ruins pictures for me. Like, if someone tells me, Oh, that was fake, I was like, oh, you know, like, because I love things that are real, and if they're not perfect, or if they are perfect and it's real, do you know what I mean? Like, that is just, you know, it's like having like, we said this in the book, but it's the difference between like an animal in the wild and animal in the zoo. It's still the same animal, but it's completely different experience. It makes you like how you feel so much more when you see the animal in the wild. I remember in Sri Lanka, we went to see elephants and in and oh my god, it was so amazing. And, like, they were like, running pastas, and it was raining, and it was like, wow, this is cool. And then you see one in the zoo, and they're just kind of like standing there, and it's just not the same experience at all. And that's how I feel about photography. It's why I love documentary. I love it to be so real.

Angela Nicholson: 43:39

Good analogy. All right, so your penultimate number, please.

Dom Shaw: 43:44

Where we up to? Four? Have I done four?

Angela Nicholson: 43:47

You haven't Okay. Was it easier to start a photography business with your brother? Would you have done it solo if he hadn't got involved? That question is from Carmen.

Dom Shaw: 43:56

All these questions have been so good, like, they've really, like, thought about us. I really appreciate it. Yeah, lovely. Um, I actually started to do it on my own in the terms of, like, the offer of the studio was, was mine alone. And obviously I was doing photography at university. Liam was doing graphics, illustration and partly photography, but it was myself that was going to do it. But I was, I was 21 and it was a big thing, and I was, I don't know, I guess it was just like the mindset of the youth, right? I was like, I can do this alone, you know? But it was actually, I think it was my mom, who was like, you know, maybe like Liam. And like Liam was like, in between jobs at the time, and he was working out what he would be doing. And I was like, Hey, do you want to do this with me? But I had no idea that working with Liam would be as fulfilling. We would do so much together, and I can't imagine doing it on my own now. And I know, and you know, the whole thing about at the beginning with when I was saying, like, Liam saw the big picture. Like I. That is Liam, you know, he was never satisfied. We would used to with the photography at the level that it was, you know, we used to sit there when we were doing our calls together, and that's how we came with the list. And we were like, he was, you know, he was never satisfied with the image. He was like, you know, this, I remember him very clearly going through one of our first calls, and he was, and this was a good one. We were proud of this one. We were like, yeah. And he was like, oh, it's all just bullseye. It's all just in the middle. He was like, every image, Bullseye, Bullseye, Bullseye. And I was like, Oh, wow, yeah, you're right. And, and now I'm proud to say that I bring stuff to the table too, and I will say something. And what's great is, when there's two of you, you learn twice as fast. So he'll tell me something, and I'll learn it, and then I'll, he'll, I'll tell him something, and he'll learn it, and then we'll build together. So yeah, I cannot imagine doing on my own. But yeah, it was actually a consideration that it was going to be on my own. Yeah, the the partnership with Liam, and what we've achieved and what we've taken and where we've been and everything, the fact that the book is selling internationally, that's because of us both. So I'm, yeah, I can't imagine doing that on my own now.

Angela Nicholson: 46:10

That's lovely. Well, that's great. So it's your final question, please?

Dom Shaw: 46:16

Nine.

Angela Nicholson: 46:16

Number nine, what is your go to lens and camera combination for a documentary wedding shoot?And several people asked that.

Dom Shaw: 46:24

Oh, okay, well, I tend to use the (Fujifilm XF) 23mm f/1.4 which is equivalent of, like, you know, a 35mm think it's nice, though, to mix it up, but that is what I 99, 95% of the time use, because it's, it's how we see. You know, you know, when you know, when you put the when you put the screen up, it's how we see, it's how I like to shoot, and it feels really comfortable to me. But actually it's really good to get out of your comfort zone at times. And some of the images that we've taken that in the book are like the 51.0 which you wouldn't think was necessarily a lens that would work with the way that we shoot. But that's that's actually not true. You can shoot, you know, the way we shoot, it could be portrait, it can be landscape, it can be a different lens. It's the it's the set of rules and the the aesthetic and the vision which needs to be and the connections to the photography that that needs to be correct. In actual fact, you can do on any lens, whatever feels right for you, whatever feels good in for one the picture and two, just for shooting in general. But I would say that 23mm is like the main one. However, I am totally in love with the X 100 VI, so that is obviously a fixed lens on it, and I've been shooting with that as well. And we've actually shot some weddings, obviously not just with that, but alongside. And it's so wonderful to have such a small camera at a wedding, and it's great for the street as well.

Angela Nicholson: 47:43

Yeah, that is a lovely, lovely camera. But which camera do you put your 23 mm on?

Dom Shaw: 47:48

Currently, an XH2S, but like, we, it's a little bit heavy, so we are hoping some point they might do an X-Pro new one, so that we could and because that means

Angela Nicholson: 48:01

Hopefully they're listening.

Dom Shaw: 48:02

Yeah, yeah, if you're listening, that would be nice. Because we a lot of the images that were taken, well, all the images that were taken Cuba, because it was brand new out and we took on the expo two, and that was our favourite, favourite, favourite camera. So, but the X 100 VI is kind of really pushing up there has been one of our favourite cameras, but to have interchangeable lenses on it. Yeah, I'd love a new X-Pro.

Angela Nicholson: 48:26

Yeah, okay, right. Dom, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. It's been really lovely chatting with you.

Dom Shaw: 48:33

I've really enjoyed it. And thank you so much for SheClickers, for all the questions, genuinely great questions, really fun to answer, and I appreciate them taking some time to, like, look at me and understand a little bit about what I do. So the questions were really relevant. It was fantastic. Thank you.

Angela Nicholson: 48:47

Great. Well, you're very welcome. Bye, bye. Bye. Thanks for listening to this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. Special. Thanks to everybody who sent in a question. You'll find links to Dom's website and social media channels in the show notes. I'll be back with another episode soon, so please subscribe to the show on your favourite podcast platform and tell all your friends and followers about it. You'll also find she clicks on Facebook, X, Instagram and YouTube if you search for SheClicks net. So until next time, enjoy your photography.