Jill Furmanovsky: 0:05

The group was Yes, and a friend had given me a ticket and we were in the balcony. With the camera, I could see, it wasn't going to be very good pictures from the balcony, you know, with the lenses I had, but I could see in the aisles, some photographers working. And once the concert began, I thought, 'Well, maybe if I go down there with this camera, maybe they'll think I'm one of them'.

Angela Nicholson: 0:28

Welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson, and I'm the founder of SheClicks, which is a community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I talk with women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them, and how they got to where they are now. Our guest in this episode is Jill Furmanovsky, a music photographer who over the last 50 years as photographed the biggest and best acts around including Pink Floyd, Bob Marley, the police and Oasis. Her images have appeared on album covers, and in books and magazines across the globe. Hi, Jill, thank you so much for joining me on this SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast today. It's really lovely to see you.

Jill Furmanovsky: 1:07

It's a pleasure to be here, Ange.

Angela Nicholson: 1:09

Thank you. Now, last year, you celebrated 50 years in the music photography business. But I wonder if you could go back and tell us what it was that first attracted you into photography.

Jill Furmanovsky: 1:22

My interest in photography came from my dad, who was a very, very good amateur photographer. I was born and was living as a child in a place called Bulawayo in Rhodesia as it was, it's now Zimbabwe. So a very different kind of lifestyle to what happened when we came to London. My dad was an architect, and he wasn't very keen on sports or, you know, swimming or any of that stuff. His hobbies were listening to jazz, playing guitar in a dance band, since when I was a small child, and his other main hobby was photography. So he used it for work to photograph buildings. But he also had a darkroom at home. And so he took a lot of pictures of us children and the dogs and I don't know, mainly people family. And then he would process and print them in the home darkroom. And I used to sit on our high school and watch him. So that magical process, I think, went right inside me, plus the music, which I didn't like, by the way was jazz. I wasn't keen on it, because he liked music. He liked photography, and I seem to have made that my career was always going to be your career photography, or did you do something else first and then make a sideways move. I didn't have any plans to have this as my career at all. In fact, after the age of 11, my parents moved to the UK. And that was actually traumatic for me coming from a small town in Africa. I didn't fit in very well, I was I felt a bit of an outsider. I found school quite difficult. And the only kind of compensation was that it was the 60s in London and the Beatles, and I became a member of the fan club. And it was a very exciting time for London. So I kind of embraced that and went to an art class on a Saturday at Harrow School of Art. Then when I left my school with, I think I had five O levels and a portfolio. I applied to Harrow School of Art. So I didn't have any idea that I would be anything other than, I knew I wanted to go to art school because, well, the Beatles, some of them went to art school and lots of Roxy Music, went to art school and all these things. So that was my idea. I did a foundation cause Harrow School of Art. I wanted to do graphic design, but the school that the college thought that I'd be better off applying for a textile design degree course because of my I think maybe it was oversubscribed in graphics. And so I applied for a textile design degree course at the Central School of Art and Design, which was a prestigious establishment. It's now the Central Saint Martin's School of Art. So, and I got in. So now we're talking 1971.

Angela Nicholson: 4:04

And how did that lead to you moving into photography?

Jill Furmanovsky: 4:07

All the students did a two week course in photography. Photography itself was not a degree course. At that time, not a dance school. Were not at mine anyway, it was considered a service department.

Angela Nicholson: 4:20

Right?

Jill Furmanovsky: 4:21

You did the two week photography course so you can photograph your work.

Angela Nicholson: 4:24

Right, got you.

Jill Furmanovsky: 4:26

But it was taught by professional photographers, including some very eminent ones. So in the second term of 1972 was the second tab of my of my three year course. It was our turn in textiles to do the two week course. And you got given a Pentax camera, a Spotmatic that they had a roll of colour film on the first day. So you went out with a colour a roll of coloured transparency film, and that got processed overnight sort of thing in order to see that you knew how to use the camera because you'd have to get Get the exposures right on slide fill wouldn't you?

Angela Nicholson: 5:02

Yes.

Jill Furmanovsky: 5:03

There wasn't much leeway you had make sure. And I had this sort of beginner's luck. I mean, at first of all, I was just enamoured of having a proper camera. And then also just I had, I took some really good pictures on that first roll of film, and the shoot was very pleased with me. The second day, or the third day, you got a roll of black and white, you did the same. Then the third day or fourth day you learn to process that film and make a contact sheet. And on the Friday, they gave you a roll of fill, and another lens and you could photograph what you liked over the weekend. And I went to the Rainbow Theatre that night, Friday night, it was 14th of January with the camera. And that's when my career began. Because I got a job that night by a fluke as a photographer.

Angela Nicholson: 5:52

Oh, wow. Did you have a ticket to see the act?

Jill Furmanovsky: 5:56

Yes, yes, I did. I had a ticket, the group was Yes. And a friend had given me a ticket and we were in the balcony. With the camera, I could see, it wasn't going to get very good pictures from the balcony, you know, with the lenses I had. But I could see in the aisles, some photographers working. And once the concert began, I thought well, maybe if I go down there with this camera, maybe they'll think I'm one of them. And the the interesting thing about that is it once a geek has started, there's nobody about actually, you know, there's only you just have to walk down and went downstairs into the auditorium open the door, walked down the central aisle, and nobody stopped me crouched down with the other photographers and took my one roll of film.

Angela Nicholson: 6:40

Yeah.

Jill Furmanovsky: 6:40

And at the end of that concert, I was sort of obviously over the moon. So one of them, or two of them, actually, we were working to the theatre and they had to go away on a project. And they asked me if I was interested to take over thinking or perhaps I even said that I might be professional while I was 18. And I'd only done four days of photography.

Angela Nicholson: 7:02

Fantastic.

Jill Furmanovsky: 7:03

And on Monday, I went to college and I said I've got a job. Can you teach me everything very fast? Because I got a job. It wasn't a paid job. Incidentally, it was you got your expenses you got, you know, you had to provide some pictures if they needed them from a theatre. And the magic was you had an access pass all areas, and also the pass said on it. Photographer.

Angela Nicholson: 7:26

Right.

Jill Furmanovsky: 7:28

So to me that was written down. It was like a passport. What are you? I'm a photographer, where can you go everywhere? That's for me.

Angela Nicholson: 7:37

Fantastic. And did the expenses cover film?

Jill Furmanovsky: 7:40

Yes, just about, just about certainly didn't cover more than that. But within a few months, when I was getting quite good at taking the live shots, I would take ten by eights down to the music press, Melody Maker actually, and you'd put your pictures on the on the picture editor's desk. And then you know then they might use it. You know the for the next issue is that of the newspaper which came out on a Thursday. So if you were shooting on the weekend, you'd stay up all night and and process of film, do a few prints in the college darkroom. Take them to Melody Maker on Monday or Tuesday. And then they may get used in the paper on Wednesday for Thursday. And I always remember sort of going with these prints and you know, seeing other people's prints a lot better and a little better photographs and just putting them down and running off. But eventually I got better at it. And then by the end of that first year, so I did the course in in January, in December of that year, I had my first cover of Melody Maker with one of my pictures, but they wouldn't give me a credit. That was my problem.

Angela Nicholson: 8:48

Why not?

Jill Furmanovsky: 8:50

I think it was either the the actual Melody Maker photographers, you know, protecting their ground. But at that time, I hadn't got a credit for a few of these pictures. And when I got the cover, I plucked up courage to see the editor. His name was Ray Coleman. And he was like a school master and it was very much a boys club. The women in there were secretaries mainly, there was maybe one or two freelance journalists, no other photographers for Melody Maker. But I said to him, could I have a credit next time? And he sort of did that with the glasses, you know, you'll get one when you deserve one. And then I never did get a credit from Melody Maker until they changed editors. I got credits eventually from from all the music press. And in fact, we used to get massive credits at NME. But for a year or so there were no credits.

Angela Nicholson: 9:40

Wow, that's astonishing. You took a picture that was deemed good enough to go on the cover. But you couldn't have your name on it. That's astonishing. Gosh. What would you say were your biggest challenges during those early years, apart from getting recognition?

Jill Furmanovsky: 9:56

I think being young really was a stumbling block because being female was obviously problematic in its own way too, but it had advantages. It really did. So I, I tried to sort of balance that out, but being young and female, and was that was a little bit that was problematic because you're so green you don't know whether you can charge for it, you don't if you can ask for permission to take pictures of the Rainbow Theatre at that time, it was under various different management's and they would open and close and then a new manager would come in and so on. In between that I was trying to get to do shows in other places, which meant I had to go through a promoter or record company or manager. And that was also quite tricky. And then, you know, then the road crew might hit upon you and you know, or the doorman you know, but on the other hand, you had to do a bit of charming you're way past of doorman, but then you didn't want them coming on to you. So I was balancing, you know, I was trying to make myself as invisible as possible. And certainly I wouldn't be wearing stilettos in a miniskirt I was wearing for the most part, very ordinary clothes, preferably black. And, you know, baggy.

Angela Nicholson: 11:06

You said there weren't any female photographers in the area working in at that time.

Jill Furmanovsky: 11:10

There was one and there was Pennie Smith. Pennie Smith had begun around the same time as me, but she had a much better job. You see, she worked for me that she had a regular job, which I think may even had some money attached to it. So in the pit, I used to see Pennie and we were always giggling if there was some very macho artists with a bulge in his trousers, we'd be like going on. Now a few laughs in there, me and Pennie and she used to carry out equipment in a little child suitcase. I switched to Nikon on at some point around that in the second or third year but Pennie always used I think a Pentax in her little suitcase, the pit had male photographers in it the rest of the time, and some of them were quite bullying, you know, I remember being elbowed out of the way, like get out my way, you know, you're you're not as important as me. But then also we got some help from some photographers and I used to ply the nicer ones with technical questions. I probably apply to you now and doing a drum solo or something, you know, how do you process your fill it and Mike Putnam would go 68 degrees microphone nine and a half minutes. Okay, thank you. That was how I learned from them.

Angela Nicholson: 12:24

There's nothing like those one-to-one conversations. Okay, you're shouting over a drum solo. But, you know, actually hearing it from the horse's mouth is great isn't it's a great way of learning.

Jill Furmanovsky: 12:34

Yes, I thank all the ones that helped me Barrie Wentzell was another one he worked for Melody Maker was a darling. He used to print, he lived in Soho. And he had an enlarger needs lounge or something. And he would have the whole roll of film. He didn't cut them into sixes, he just took the whole roll film, and just sort of put it through the enlarger to Li hit upon one that was sharp, and he'd print that one.

Angela Nicholson: 12:53

Right?

Jill Furmanovsky: 12:54

That was also useful to learn.

Angela Nicholson: 12:56

Yeah, a bit quicker, I suppose. How long would you say you were doing that kind of thing before you actually considered yourself or a professional or you're actually making some money from it.

Jill Furmanovsky: 13:05

When I was making these little bits of money, and then occasionally a promoter or would buy one Pink Floyd are were the first band that I kind of did more work with than the others and their manager bought a few. And then around 1974 When I left college, I started to get a little bit of work that was not just live shots in the pit. My first assignment was actually Stevie Wonder. Well, aside from some of the shots of the Floyd that I did for myself at my first assignment was someone somebody was ill and I got took their job of photographing Stevie Wonder in a hotel room. And that was that was the first time I'd had to encounter actually coming, you know, really face to face with, with the musician and having to talk to them and deal with other journalists, photographer teams and so on.

Angela Nicholson: 13:55

That's a very different experience to photographing a live act, isn't it? Because when you're in the pit, you're looking at them waiting for them to do something. But when you're the photographer, and they're looking at you saying, 'What do you want me to do?' You've got to give a bit of direction or did they tell you what they wanted?

Jill Furmanovsky: 14:12

Well, they didn't you know, then you're on your own. No, you're right. I mean, the great thing about the music press is they didn't tell you anything. Particularly they just said get good shots. You know, I mean, there was no, there wasn't really art directors as such.

Angela Nicholson: 14:25

Yeah, don't muck it up.

Jill Furmanovsky: 14:27

Yeah, don't XXX it up. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that was really it. I mean, my first shoot that first year was Stevie Wonder. I think Oh, could have done a lot better, but it was okay. And I was learning and I, you know, got salting of the atmosphere of it. And I saw other photographers in that room you know, who were the next lot along? I was watching what they were doing some had flashes I didn't have that for ages. And with Floyd you're even earlier than Stevie Wonder with them and my first shot to them in a dressing room. I used a flash but I didn't realise that the flash I only covered 50 millimetre lenses and not 28 millimetre lenses. So my pictures from that time have got fall off.

Angela Nicholson: 15:06

Right.

Jill Furmanovsky: 15:08

On the sides. Because because the flash wasn't covering it, I did not use a flash anyway, all of these things now seem like a joke, but I mean, it was that sort of time.

Angela Nicholson: 15:18

You were learning. Once you started going with the music, photography, and you did the Stevie Wonder photograph, was there always going to be music photography, and from there on?

Jill Furmanovsky: 15:26

I think it was like what happened to me after a year of doing this photography at the rainbow is the college to do hang on a minute, you're not doing much on the web, textile design, we couldn't help but notice you're always in the darkroom, or, you know, and they said, Why don't you leave if if you want to do photography, you want to go to the London College of printing, where That's where they do photography, not here, there's, we're an art school, you're not a film place. But the London School of printing was more of a sort of place for people in lab coats, you know, it was that more of that style of teaching photography at that time. And I really liked being an art school. And it is a really free atmosphere. And I didn't want to leave art school and the photography tutors who amongst whom was a fashion photographer called Ian Hessenberg and a photojournalist called Jürgen Schadeberg. They're both eminent photographers, he kind of supported me and they got me moved to graphics, because in graphics, you could kind of get away with being in the darkroom and doing fee. And that's where I wanted to be in the first place. So I had to catch up. So I did, in fact, my degree that I stayed for the full three years in graphic design. So in fact, yeah, so I didn't think though about doing anything other than, you know, just making a go of this of this opportunity that had come up. It was just so exciting and so interesting. And also, I had fallen in love with photography, before falling in love with photographing the band's there was only four days in it. But I've told you, I had beginner's luck with my first roll of film. Because I was in love with photography, I was a shy person, and the camera made me feel more confident. It just seemed natural that I should, you know, felt so much more confident when I was doing that stuff. I was in love with photography. And then four days later, I was also in love with music, and that combination couldn't be bettered. So I managed somehow to have lasted all these years without really having a proper job. Although, as a youngster, I did shorthand and typing and was a temporary secretary and did that sort of thing as well.

Angela Nicholson: 17:25

Has that ever helped you out in any way would you say doing the typing?

Jill Furmanovsky: 17:29

Absolutely. Yeah, definitely. I mean, when we got computers, having done shorthand and typing, touch typing, like goodness, that was useful. And, and also, I don't think I've ever taken it for granted. There's that I've been lucky, you know, it didn't fall in my lap. The opportunity fell in my lap, but not the, not the slog that managed to keep me on the, on the road on the road to to doing it really.

Angela Nicholson: 17:54

Well I do believe in the thing that people say about you make your own luck, don't you? Because you have to say yes to things and put the effort in and turn up and do a job and adapt and keep going. So yeah, but I know what you mean. Now, you've shot extensively on film, and you've moved to digital now. How do you think digital technology has impacted upon your career?

Jill Furmanovsky: 18:15

It was a bit of a shocker, actually, for me because I was shooting from 1972. And I didn't really go digital shooting wise until about 2005. So I was quite late to shooting digitally. But in 1997, on the cusp of the digital revolution, I had a very big exhibition of Oasis in the Roundhouse, everybody, all businesses and all sponsors were very interested in being involved with their waste is so I got given an Epson printer, a Kodak scanner, a Kodak digital camera that had a battery about the size of you know, that sort of size battery. And then Olympus we're launching their first consumer digital camera at my exhibition. And so actually in 1997, I was right bang in the in the digital revolution right on the cusp, and Photoshop and all that and websites, it all went like all in one. And so actually what I really really after the digital printing, because until digital printing, if you wanted to make a print from a transparency, it was very expensive and the background was black because they were reversals. And I didn't shoot much on neg colour neg film at the time to get a decent print colour print was really problematic and as soon as digital came along and those first Epson machines that we use for that exhibition, we used a mixture of different printings each print in the exhibition said how it was made and on what and how it was shot. Because I thought that was important. We had, you know, we had an Olympus studio where you could go to the exhibition and have your picture taken, like on a zebra or like there was a kind of a big backdrop where Noel was walking across the blue zebra crossing and you, you could dress up as Liam in a parka and shades and have your picture taken on Olympus camera. And at the end of the show, you could walk out with a little print. This was a complete revolution that's in the website. So at the end of that series of things in 1998, I started my first proper website, which was Rock Archive dot com. Because I'd been left at all this kit I had all this stuff leftover from the exhibition. So I, you could say I'm very early exponent of, of the digital because also I love Photoshop. I just thought it was magical. And I knew I learned how to use it from the very first version of it, Photoshop and printing what I didn't like with the cameras, initially. They were they were terrible. They had such lag, you didn't get the moment did you? You could go for a walk around the block and then fire. That's what it felt like anyway, you know?

Angela Nicholson: 20:54

Yes, very clunky, clunky, slow. Yeah, that must have been very tough for photographing live.

Jill Furmanovsky: 21:01

Yeah, this the quality was was poor. You know, I mean, there's all right to sort of do snaps if you're, you know, your kids and stuff, but not, not for professional and always been very keen on printing. I like a beautiful print. And the digital printing was fantastic from the start. Although at that point, it wasn't yet archival. It became archival a couple years later.

Angela Nicholson: 21:20

Yes, a gradual shift to cyan or green. Yeah, images as you as you watch them almost. Yes. I was wondering if you had skipped film and gone straight to digital, whether you would have ever done any of your joiner images, because I feel like you know, when you get a packet of film or you have prints, and you tip them out onto the table, it's also almost an automatic thing to start thinking about making a joiner. Yeah. And I know you've done some absolutely fantastic ones. Do you think you would have done that in digital from a start? I know you have done digital ones, as well.

Jill Furmanovsky: 21:52

I started doing the most because of David Hockney in the in the mid 80s. Because of his seeing this exhibition that he did, incidentally also the Quantel paintbox computer, pre Photoshop. Yeah. I mean, you know, I did a couple of montages or join us, if you like, digitally. Pre that exhibition because I needed to do artwork for madness, for example, and I did an artwork for sinead o'connor that involved montaging pictures, they you went to a lab, and then they they scan those legs and then and then a man in a lab coats would say, where do you want to move it to? And you'd sit there? I mean, to me, it was fabulous. Yeah, all of those paint boxy things Photoshop or digital processing. What wasn't okay, was shooting a picture, or shooting the moment that seemed to gone out the window. And until 2005 When they better the lag that I couldn't use him, really. But yes, I think I would have done the join is anyway, I think that was the join has started on film and morphed into digital, you know, just naturally.

Angela Nicholson: 22:56

Okay. And when you were happy with a digital camera, what did you actually opt for? Do you remember?

Jill Furmanovsky: 23:01

Yeah, I'm a Nikon user or was, you know, been using Nikon hands. I wanted a Nikon. I think it was something-100 When I finally decided, in fact, what why I did it was I had a job that had to be done digitally. In 2005. It just had to be done. And I thought okay, right, this is the moment I'm gonna go get digital camera to I'll get that nickel. And there was a waiting list for it. So I've got a Canon. And that was the end of it, I just, I got a Canon EOS something or other. And that was the end of it. And then I kind of regretted it because I had all these Nikon lenses and and you know, Nikon person. But from that point on, I was using a Canon.

Angela Nicholson: 23:40

They're very different. Now we switch to mirrorless photography, I know you've got an R5, have got to grips with things like the eye detection yet, do you find that really useful for what you do?

Jill Furmanovsky: 23:49

Well, as you know, I saw you at the Photo Show and I was you know, I had to go and find somebody to help me because every time a camera changes and this included during the film era from a Nikon FE to an you know, in an F4 or something. I mean, it was like it was so traumatic, you know, because really, you get your great shot, because you're fluent it's like a language it's the fluency with the cameras so I'm actually got loads of equipment hitting them out because I'm shooting something this week and I didn't have enough lenses for that are five so so I've been lent some and so I'm still learning and I also use a cuz I like using likers I'm using a Leica M 10 P. And I've just got myself I've borrowed like a Leica Q2.

Angela Nicholson: 24:31

Oh, nice.

Jill Furmanovsky: 24:32

And there's a couple of things I don't know how to use on that either. I'm gonna have to go and see Sara Lee and ask her.

Angela Nicholson: 24:37

Every day is a learning day, isn't it?

Jill Furmanovsky: 24:39

Every day is a learning day. Yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 24:41

You've been you know, shooting music for quite a long time. But do you still feel or did you ever feel under pressure in the pit that you know you've only got a limited amount of time and you really want to get a great picture that you're gonna be able to sell to a picture editor or have as few always taken that in your stride or if you just got comfortable with it now.

Jill Furmanovsky: 24:57

You mean doing just three songs or something like that. Yeah, there was a crossover around the 80s when bands and then you can't, you can't sit in the pit for the whole show, which we used to do in the rainbow, you smoke a cigarette and then, you know, chat to the photographers. No, I mean, that changed in the 1980s into the 90s to being three songs. And for me, that was terribly frustrating. Really, I remember what I did do with a couple of shoots in the in the 90s, where I where I wanted to go to the show, for various reasons, The Rolling Stones is one and YouTube were another way you only got three songs. In both cases, I made a joiner. I thought if I, if I've only got three songs, I'll use the three songs to make one picture. Right? I shot the three songs, and then I joined them all up. Yeah. So just I used it, you know, in some sort of way that was satisfying to me. Because, really, you want the last three songs, not the first three songs.

Angela Nicholson: 25:53

That's the thing, whatever it was warmed up and really going for it.

Jill Furmanovsky: 25:56

That's it. But then because of all the image thing, you know, and then maybe they're sweaty, and their clothes aren't quite smooth, immaculate, I don't know, really, most of the bands I've worked with in the 90s in the 90s onwards gave me access to all areas and I could shoot the whole show from anywhere. So I didn't have that frustration. But the other day, actually, I went to photograph Liam who was doing some show at the Forum. And I went just for fun. And and his manager said 'yeah, we can give you a ticket' and I said,'can I take some pictures?', they went 'as long as you don't mind doing the same as the other photographers.' So I said'what's that?' And they said ' One song'. and I was thinking and then it was very poor lighting as well. I thought it was a joke, really. And I stood in the pit with the other photographers who the proper press photographers, doing one song. The hilarious thing is Liam came over to me in the pit, he saw me then he shook my hand so that that used up about 12 seconds, so you know,

Angela Nicholson: 26:51

Nice, yes. I shot one artist from a pick one time and they said you can stay in for three songs, but you've got to pick a side and stay there. Yeah. Okay. And that was a bit strange. That was very frustrating. I picked the wrong side because she had the microphone on this side.

Jill Furmanovsky: 27:06

Oh, yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 27:07

So it looked like she had a big spot on the side of her face but that was quite annoying.

Jill Furmanovsky: 27:10

Yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 27:11

Do you change your approach depending on the type of music that the the artist is playing?

Jill Furmanovsky: 27:17

Not really actually, no. I don't change my approach. But you know, there's different ends I've got a you know, there's some we've got massive light shows behind them now or exploding, you know, theatrical things happening, or they you know, that kind of thing, then then obviously shooting in a different way than you would do, let's say to a band that are just on the stage with a couple of lines, giving it their all where maybe you can get in close possibly some bands won't have you budget using Flash. I don't I tend not to use flash anywhere. But occasionally in punk. For example, during punk here, there was no lighting. So punk punk images are our flesh lit images. And they're very effective, because they look like you know, frozen animals and their headlamps of the cars what I say you know, so you have to adapt. And then there was Pink Floyd I was forever smearing my lens with Vaseline and making it all kind of psychedelic which is which of course you don't have to do in Photoshop. You can do the psychedelic bit afterwards.

Angela Nicholson: 28:14

Yeah, so you sort of tried to match your style of photography to suit their style of musical act, I suppose presentation.

Jill Furmanovsky: 28:21

Yeah, I to me, I was doing Jools Holland, a couple of nights ago in in the National Gallery. I was just thinking, this is so wonderful. I know it's gonna stop me it was only a short show us doing but I mean, I was playing with the camera, I was just doing the meditation. I mean, you just, it's such a wonderful thing to do. i It's my favourite in a way of all the kinds, even though it's nice to meet them and all that. But what I really like is you go on the stage and do your thing and leave me to do mine. I'll, I'll find something in there that will be unexpected and wonderful.

Angela Nicholson: 28:53

Great. Have you got any plans for any further exhibitions or to tour the exhibitions that you've put on recently?

Jill Furmanovsky: 29:00

Well, I'm hoping to take the retrospective exhibition, which was called in Manchester, it was called Photographing the Invisible and in London, we altered it slightly to No Music, No Life, which was only because it was a slightly different exhibition, but it will probably be back to being Photographing the Invisible to Europe, and possibly to Scotland as well.

Angela Nicholson: 29:21

Fantastic.

Jill Furmanovsky: 29:23

Because I think it seems a shame that these exhibitions that I've put together and this is not just my ones, but the ones that Rock Archive have done fantastic curated exhibitions, that they've got no touring circuit, and that there is no permanent space for these things. I'm still very aware of that and and trying to do something about it as best I can and have done for 25 years because the attendance in Manchester was was massive for all the exhibitions we've done there. You know, like 25,000 I mean, massive and and yet there's no funding the libraries penniless. I mean, thanks to MPB really who have been incredibly supported. That's just enabled us to do stuff, really? And, you know, but really, there should be a bit more, I think, to enable touring exhibitions.

Angela Nicholson: 30:10

Yeah, I agree. The exhibition in Manchester in particular. I mean, I could imagine it being an underestimate, because there were so many people milling around, you know, going in and out,

Jill Furmanovsky: 30:19

Yes,

Angela Nicholson: 30:19

having a look, I don't know how they keep track of everybody. But we had a SheClicks meet up there. And it was absolutely fantastic. We loved it. And we also went to the one at the Proud Galleries in London, which was fantastic. The thing that really, I love the images, obviously, but one of the things that really caught my eye was the video of you and Noel talking together. And that was really engaging, you've obviously developed a very firm connection that was really nice. And you're talking about your work, have you got similar relationships with other musicians that you've worked with?

Jill Furmanovsky: 30:50

Noel is very special, because he's, he's so interested in photography. And he's always had a vision that it was important, just by the by there's there is a film that's been made about my work called the invisible photographer, oh, is in the bag. But we're waiting for the last bit of funding, right to do the music clearances that were very expensive, because it's been made over a period of many years. And it within that there's other artists I've worked with closely. So I mean, Chrissie Hynde is another person that a very similar conversation could take place. Although she has a different attitude towards photography, Nick Mason is another Nile Rodgers is another so these are, these are some of my clients that I've worked with for many years. My best body of work is Oasis, there's no question in my mind that that's when I did I don't you know, was at my peak, I was just the right age, I was in my 40s. And it was a good age to be working in that way. I had a lot of experience, and they permitted closeness. They really permitted to they wanted they they didn't mind it, and not all artists can handle it, some can't stand it, then you're working in a different way. But there was a wonderful mix. And an each artist is a little bit different with how they approach their image, although they're all image conscious in some way. And I have had long working relationships with quite a lot of artists, many actually. And also there's some that I've never photograph that I wish I had to.

Angela Nicholson: 32:14

Yes, I can imagine. Now, before we move on. I just like to talk about Rock Archive, because you mentioned it in passing earlier. But what actually was your inspiration to start it?

Jill Furmanovsky: 32:24

It was that, it was having that kit leftover from that Oasis exhibition at the Roundhouse. That exhibition was was mega. I mean, it was it was a bit like a V&A exhibition. And when I think about it now, I was thinking it was way ahead of its time. I mean, it was the Roundhouse is in a gigantic building, and we had the whole of the Roundhouse, the entire and it was before it was renovated. So it's a massive, round space. And we, you know, we did up lighting, we had a made a little film to go with it. We had holograms, we had extra large prints, there were backlit transparencies, it had its own soundtrack. I mean, this is 1997. Wow. And then, and it had its own lighting rig. It was a proper touring exhibition. It was a truck that came and it went to the Hacienda and Manchester, which was, you know, an iconic place, then it went to the tramways in Glasgow, and then it ended up in Dublin at the centre of photography in Dublin. And at that I was thinking rate, this is I've just shown how are popular and innovative this can be now we'll get a rock roll Museum, no doing nothing happened. And that's, you know, 20 foot baths. i After that exhibition, I had the scanner, the printer on a website, and then a new website, I thought rock archive.com would be good, because that would be more generic. Yep. And that next time I do such an exhibition, it could be, you know, a more generic one, not just one band. And then I, I thought, well, what will we do? We not gonna be picture agency, we could just make prints, because we've got all this kit that x inks became archival, a couple of years later. So from going from a website, we thought, Oh, we can make prints and then we could sell those online. Yeah. And then I said, well, not just mine, I put thirty in and I thought my friend Storm Thorgerson from Hipnosis. He said, Yeah, great idea. Let's put some of my artwork in there. Barrie Wentzell, you know, showed me how to print and other people might, you know, we had a bunch of photographers that each contributed maybe five or six images, not many. I just said to them, just give me a give me like a few of your images, not your best ones. And we will exclusively make prints from those and then it grew and grew. So there was something that was like 100 photographers or more, you know, all kind of like it became like a portal for rock photography, because everybody had their picture. And then and then you could find out more about rock photography as well. And the problem with it is that it was not particularly profitable. We gave photographers a lot of you know Very good royalties, we didn't get funded by anybody. And all I've managed to do, although I'm very proud of it was keep it going for 25 years. And it grew and grew. And I still think that actually, it's, it was ahead of its time, really. And then we started curating exhibitions in places that don't have exhibitions, like libraries, like the Manchester Central Library, the Barbican library, we've done four or five exhibitions in there, put them on the map, you know, kind of did a punk exhibition there, you know, which had more visitors at one point than the Martin Parr, which is in the proper gallery, people were going in with the punk exhibition, and I'm going what in the gallery and then it known in the library. And as a result of that, now, there's a fantastic Two Tone exhibition in the library in the Barbican, which is also had less massive visitors all going through the books and people stamping books into a space, it's now been made tailor made for them. Because there isn't anywhere else to show the stuff. I can't at the Tate have never asked me the photographer's gallery have never asked me. Nobody has come forward and said, Would you like to have an exhibition? Nobody wanted to have an exhibition. But you know, we did an exhibition in Manchester on the Manchester music scene using the collective and then new photographers bringing in their stuff that hadn't been done before. And don't know where to put it afterwards. It just as crazy really.

Angela Nicholson: 36:19

Yeah, that is a real shame. Because as you say, you know, there's such a depth of photography there. And there's huge interest in it as well. I mean, particularly well, you know, looking back, people look at the the images of the artists at the time when they were at their peak, when they loved them the most they were producing the music they still love to listen to and they look back and it brings all sorts of memories back. If anyone who hasn't had a look at Rock archive, you really must go. But don't just do it when you're about to rush out or you know, you need you've got the dinner on because you'll be there for quite some time. I've lost quite a few hours going through the images and thinking oh, one day, I might get a print of that word. And you know, there's a huge array, and I think some of the images would probably surprise people that they could actually buy that as a print.

Jill Furmanovsky: 37:00

Yeah, that's true. And also, I'd recommend that any goes to look at some of the videos because what I've also done with rock archive over the years is try to film some of the photographers because nobody else nobody was doing it. Right. Yeah, it's madness. So for example, Don Hunstein, who photographed several Bob Dylan sessions, and has got classic stuff. I just went to New York and filmed him on a small camera. And then and then he became, you know, he had dementia couldn't, couldn't talk about it. And then he died. I took an actual film cameraman with me to New York to fill a guy called Al Wertheimer, who was Elvis's photographer who was in his 80s. I mean, what stories that man had, and I think you'll get us on the front line, you want to ask him about all this, you know, you don't ask some of them, you know, somebody writes text on it, that lands sat next to Elvis on the train. And again, on punk, we've made sure that we interviewed some of the photographers working there, and I still think I could do a lot more with that. I've got a little iron in the fire that I'm gonna my fingers crossed, that I may be able to do a little bit more of that sort of thing. But at the same time, I'm aware that I'm now 70. And my own archive is neglected. And that's why I did the retrospective because, you know, given my life over really, if you like to, willingly, each one of these things takes time. Somebody must take this over, somebody must run with it, because I won't be able to do it. And I'm gonna have to step down at some point soon.

Angela Nicholson: 38:30

Yes, well, hopefully someone will step forward. Okay, well, I think it's probably a good point to go to Six From SheClicks. And I've got 10 questions from SheClickers. I would like you to answer six questions, please, by choosing numbers from one to 10. So if you could give me your first number, please.

Jill Furmanovsky: 38:48

And number nine.

Angela Nicholson: 38:50

Number nine, what was the first image you had published? Do you remember what that was? That's from Liz.

Jill Furmanovsky: 38:57

That's a very good question Liz, it was probably no more than, you know, two inches by one inch. It was probably a live shot from the Rainbow. So but I was probably over the moon with it. But my map, the one I remember was of course the cover. Okay. I don't think you said who the cover shot was off. Yes, it was Roger Daltrey of The Who, in Tommy. And it's a really good one, that one, but the newspaper, of course, looked like you know, it was very bad reproduction. So it's not a you know, it's just newsprint, black and white.

Angela Nicholson: 39:25

Yeah. All right. So could I have your second number, please?

Jill Furmanovsky: 39:28

Two.

Angela Nicholson: 39:29

Number two, do you have a preferred camera and lens set up for photographing live music? If so? What is it and several people asked that one.

Jill Furmanovsky: 39:38

Yeah. Depends on how close you are. If you're in the pit, or in the central aisle, you want to 24- 70 and a 70-200, preferably an f/2.8. So in other words, that doesn't shut down to f/5.6 when you zoom in.

Angela Nicholson: 39:54

Okay. Do you take two cameras in so you got you don't have to keep swapping lenses.

Jill Furmanovsky: 39:59

I do. Yeah, if you have to go further back had a 2x to converter for the 70-200, making it like a 400. But I've noticed that if you if you if you have to be at the mixing desk or further blank, you're gonna need something much longer and fast and faster to be such huge cannon of, you know, like, a missile of some kind.

Angela Nicholson: 40:19

Yeah, something really big and heavy. Yeah. Are you ever tempted to use a monopod? Or anything to help with that weight?

Jill Furmanovsky: 40:25

No I find them irritating me, I have used them. But on the whole I liked I'm very restless when I'm shooting, I'm going here and then I'll take the thing and knock somebody over with it now. So I tend not to know.

Angela Nicholson: 40:37

Okay, so could have your third number, please?

Jill Furmanovsky: 40:41

Where are we? Let's have number one. Okay, Ioh this is, this is a good one. This is from Philippa, with film, we have to decide if we're going to shoot in colour or black and white before we start shooting. But with digital, we have the flexibility to swap between them fairly easily. Do you still make that decision before you shoot? Or afterwards? Afterwards. Absolutely. I do. Yeah, it's an instinctive decision. And sometimes I'll offer both alternatives. If a client has asked me if I think it looks better, and black and white. And quite often I do by the way that I still, I still offer both if they wanted.

Angela Nicholson: 41:14

When you're taking a shot, do you sometimes think, 'Oh, this is going to look great in black and white' at that time and then make a mental note to do it?

Jill Furmanovsky: 41:20

No, I mean, I'm usually just trying to catch a moment. That's my priority. I'm very rarely shooting setups, I'm usually winging it somewhere. So I'm not normally thinking about how it'll end up. I just hope it'll be sharp. And that, that I've caught something I don't really worry too much about you know, that I'm not one of those photographers that like working in the studio really has to consider everything do carefully.

Angela Nicholson: 41:45

Okay, so your fourth number, please.

Jill Furmanovsky: 41:47

Number four.

Angela Nicholson: 41:49

OK. Who would you like to photograph but haven't yet and again, several people asked that question.

Jill Furmanovsky: 41:54

Do you know there's quite a lot, I get I become very excited by by new bands if I see something I like. So I did actually manage to photograph them and so much so that I actually followed them which was Gabriels. For example, I love Jacob from Gabriels I just so I did mention to gamers but that I was like a fan. I went there and like, Please, can I do it and all that kind of thing. So I did manage that one. But I'd like I think, you know, I'd love to do a portrait of you know, like Billy Eilish, Raye, I think is very as a very interesting artist. And then my granddaughter I asked her and then she's given given me Well, there's one called boon, his name is something boon. And I looked him up and I thought, Oh, he's very good as well. And then when I go to Glastonbury, usually every Glastonbury I discover some new talents, and I get very excited by them. And also, like, there was some in the past that I never managed to photograph properly. David Bowie is one, well, I photographed him, but I had problems with his management over what I took. And then I didn't do Nina Simone. I should have done that Joni Mitchell would have been great. I followed Bob Dylan, like some sort of lunatic which if you ever watch my film, if it comes out, you'll see that I was I was I was close to being a borderline stalker, but I managed to pull back. So yeah, no, I am. I'm still a fan. And, and and I'm in awe of very talented musicians.

Angela Nicholson: 43:20

When you start to get excited about a musician, and you want to photograph them, is it the music that pulls you in first? Or do you see some pictures or some footage of them that, oh, I really want to photograph them because they're interesting looking.

Jill Furmanovsky: 43:31

It can be both, but actually, it's a good question. And because it's actually the latter, because I remember was sinead o'connor I hadn't heard music at that point, but I saw her being interviewed this exquisite sort of woman with a number one hair cut. sort of nervous, but kind of feisty, and I'm seeking who are you?

Angela Nicholson: 43:52

Huge eyes as well.

Jill Furmanovsky: 43:54

Yeah, that's really intriguing, you know, with Gabriel's, I was at Glastonbury that year and I'd never heard of Gabriel's and and I resented because I wasn't allowed to do shots and onstage I was standing then out comes this man and the kilt with this extraordinary voice and I was just my jaw just dropped off and I was I had gotten meet them afterwards I must go find this group is ridiculous you know the old lady that I am you know, dealing with I know and I went to Coventry on you know, and black my way into one of their gigs and made them allow me to take a picture of them.

Angela Nicholson: 44:32

Fantastic well, it sounds like you've definitely still got the passion and the fire for it.

Jill Furmanovsky: 44:36

It's fading but I'm you know, I'm still there, Ange.

Angela Nicholson: 44:41

Yeah, that's great. So your penultimate number, then please?

Jill Furmanovsky: 44:46

Let's do number 10.

Angela Nicholson: 44:47

Number 10. What is your advice for anyone wanting to get into music photography?

Jill Furmanovsky: 44:51

Well, first I'll give you the standard reply, which is find a local band, local musicians and work with them because they need you as much as you might need them to practice on. So I say that to say that to everybody, if they want to start doing music photography, even if you live in the countryside, go to the local pub or, or look in the newspaper and try to start shooting on your college or when your school, the local musicians, because you've got to practice first anyway. Plus, it's very useful for them, because everybody thinks they can shoot it with the phone. But you know, you'll do a better job with your camera as the first answer. But as far as becoming a professional music photographer, I'm not too sure that's even possible now, except for maybe some fluke, you know, because because there isn't a music press that's paying, and people want stuff for nothing to go online and so on. Making a living from it is, I'm not sure that it's a good idea to even think that way, without wanting to, to put anybody off, it's just to be realistic about it. And so I also always say, and I say to myself to that, make sure the typography is your first love and photographing rock stars and musicians is your second.

Angela Nicholson: 46:05

Right. Got you? Yeah, a lot of music photographers, such as yourself, you know, you do the live action photography, but you also do portrait shoots and behind the scenes and stuff like that, for album covers and promotional materials. Is that really where the money is, and is the I mean, not talking big money, you know, is the concert photography, like the 'in' with those bands,

Jill Furmanovsky: 46:28

It's very difficult to get into, it's hard to get passes for photographers now as well, because you've got your Gettys you know, like Glastonbury, for example, there's probably something like 12, or even more 15, maybe photographers from Getty, they're all covering all the different stages and things like that. And the big concerts that do too, or you know, you're Billy Eilish is all the big bands that you know that they've got either their own photographers that are doing their social media, or you've got the press photographers, you know, Dave Hogan and people like that, who provide pictures direct from the camera to the picture desk, isn't it? There's no pause. And all they've got people doing the processing on the side of the stage. And that, you know, it goes straight from from the camera into somebody who does all, you know, the metadata and straight off, and those people tend to be working for agencies and therefore they don't have the copyright.

Angela Nicholson: 47:21

Right.

Jill Furmanovsky: 47:21

So yeah, they probably paid or the band might pay or the record company might pay, but you won't be paid a huge amount. And also, you may not you may lose your copyright and your rights to the material.

Angela Nicholson: 47:31

Yeah, so that's not great news as it is, that's not great news for things like rock archive in the future, either, because you'll have Getty selling the prints rather than Rock Archive. And

Jill Furmanovsky: 47:40

Yes, that's right. And in any case, we found that we don't sell very much contemporary work at all, because if you can take a picture at a gig on your phone, you maybe won't bother to buy print anyway. And then the photographers who's shooting it may not like the Getty photographers are a member of this is a good point. They, when they're running centre playing clustering, there was a Getty photographer I was looking at I was saying 'That's brilliant. That's brilliant, my God that's fabulous.' He goes 'well, they'll never see the light of day those pictures will be in the library of Getty they won't use them anyway because they're not a picture of Mick and Keith standing together.' And so some brilliant picture taken from the top of an ice cream van. Remember the guy got himself into an ice cream van and got these fantastic shots. He just said he can't use them and they won't use them. Rock Archive, we could use it but we won't see it. It is a real shame. So you may be better off being in a crowd really and taking pictures. I do know some photographers that I encourage very strongly and say well just get in the crowd or you know, one photographer and rock advises a seat and he shoots from the scene. He gets the best shots because he's shooting the whole show from his seat but he has to be carefully won't be caught.

Angela Nicholson: 48:48

Yeah, but he's getting the atmosphere as well as well as the performance.

Jill Furmanovsky: 48:52

Yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 48:52

Okay, so your last number then please?

Jill Furmanovsky: 48:55

Let's go for seven.

Angela Nicholson: 48:56

Number seven. Do your clients usually have firm ideas about the type of images that they want? Or do you decide what works best that questions from Belinda. I think, thinking specifically about the either the behind the scenes or the album cover type shoots portrait work.

Jill Furmanovsky: 49:11

Two very different things of course. Sometimes a behind the scenes shot could be good for an album sleeve. I haven't done as many album sleeves as people who do album sleeves. By the way. I've done very few really considering my long career, right. I think my colleagues who do do album sleeves, they quite often work directly with the artists or sometimes an art director. And these are quite carefully organised pictures. I have done that myself as well. I've done done that kind of work, and it's very nice, but it's not my speciality. I think of myself more as a photo journalist really. And whilst I like to do portraits, I do like to do portraits of people with lighting on I used to use a Hasselblad a great deal. I can do that kind of work, but I'm not very good at taking direction. Fair enough.

Angela Nicholson: 49:56

It's it's good to know what you're good at and what you're not good at, I think.

Jill Furmanovsky: 50:00

Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 50:03

Well, Jill, thank you so much for joining me on this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. It's been really lovely chatting with you.

Jill Furmanovsky: 50:10

Thank you very much Ange, it has been a great pleasure.

Angela Nicholson: 50:13

Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. You'll find links to Jill's website and social media channels in the show notes. I'll be back with another episode soon, so please subscribe to the show on your favourite podcast platform and tell all your friends and followers about it. You'll also find SheClicks on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube if you search for SheClicks net. So until next time, enjoy your photography.