Emily Renier: 0:04

The thing is with photography, as all of your listeners will know is that there's a million ways of doing things. And even if you do things commercially, you can ask one question to 10 different photographers, and you'll end up with 10 different answers. And all you want really, I think as a photographer, when you're asked me for advice is a reassurance that you're okay, and you know, you're trying your best and is this best, okay.

Angela Nicholson: 0:31

Welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson, and I'm the founder of she clicks which is a community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I talked with women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them, and how they got to where they are now. Our guest today is Emily Renier, a wedding and family photographer who infuses a passion for street and documentary photography into her work. This blend of styles helps her create images that her clients love. And in recognition of her skills, Emily was named a Fujifilm ambassador in January 2024. Hi, Emily, thank you so much for joining me today are the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast.

Emily Renier: 1:09

Well, thank you for having me, when I seen the people that you have on here, it's a huge honour. So thank you very much.

Angela Nicholson: 1:15

Oh, you're very welcome. It's really great to chat with you again. So could we start right at the beginning out by hearing about how you first got into photography,

Emily Renier: 1:24

it's probably because I was a grumpy teenager. So I think that I have to be thankful and grateful to my grumpy teenage years, I moved to Spain when I was 15, from Belgium with no Spanish and no English and went to an English school there. And that kind of meant that I was quite alone for a lot of the time trying to figure myself out over there. And my dad gave me a Canberra. And so I had, you know, a moped, it was classic sort of, you know, trying to find your yourself when you were a teenager and yeah, just taking my camera out on the, on the hills of the Southern Spanish countryside, and taking some sunsets now that that was the very first memory of of kind of getting to grips with, with with me no composition as such. And then got given cameras by my dad mainly over the years, and then, you know, went into different careers, became a teacher, and so on. And then around 2000 In, I left teaching and to join kind of full time photography, I didn't know at the time I was gonna do that. But it kind of happened that way. And I started photographing families and weddings. I mean, just before then it was street photography, but kind of that led to, to commercial work such as, you know, family working, and, and weddings. And that's where it all came from. So it started Yeah, when I was 15. And I'm sure that's how it starts. For most people you can get get given a camera by someone young. I like that. And then it kind of evolves from there.

Angela Nicholson: 2:54

Yeah, and there's quite a lot of people I've spoken to they they do exactly what you did was go off into a different career. And then somehow one way or another come back to photography and discover it as their career. But what was it that inspired you to make it your career? Well, obviously,

Emily Renier: 3:08

it's really interesting that you just said that lots of people do that as a second career. I think that especially with kind of a, you know, people in their 40s. And you kind of had that midlife crisis, don't you kind of go well, actually, maybe all the stuff that I thought was important, is not actually that important, you know, earning huge salary or just being successful in a different sphere, or whatever success means in your own way. You kind of realise that's not so important. And yet you decided to kind of go ahead with a different path. I think what got me going was that I shot street photography for a while. And then a friend of mine said, you know, do Do you fancy taking pictures of my wedding because I'm getting married, and enough away, I get that go. And then my niece, who's similar age to me, my husband is much older than me. She said, Well, I'd love some some pictures of my baby, would you like you know, come down? And I said, Yeah, I'll do that. And that's where it all started. You know, but it was not, it was not like it was not necessarily a kind of overnight sort of decision. It was more of a kind of organic evolution of what I was going to do and and very much frigging figuring out all along those lines, what mattered to me and who I was and what didn't matter to me and and I kind of realised that actually, what really matters to me is, is people Yeah, as people is making connections with people is having a laugh. It's finding out who I am in the process of finding out who other people are. And I think that that photography kind of gives me that that tool, it gives me the tools or the way to figure that out. Really.

Angela Nicholson: 4:46

It sounds to me like you probably didn't sit down at any point and write a business plan, but I could be wrong. Did you do that?

Emily Renier: 4:53

No, I did actually.

Angela Nicholson: 4:54

Did you?

Emily Renier: 4:55

Yeah, no, I did. Because before going into teaching, I had a So how many careers have I had before going into teaching actually worked in business, and I have a business degree, so a master's in business. So there is a bit of business acumen there on paper, there wasn't at the start of starting business, because theory versus practice is always a bit of an interesting gap. But yes, I did, I did have a business plan as such, and I kind of figured out what my costs were going to be and where I needed to go. So I've always actually been fairly diligent about my costs, if you see what I mean, and understanding kind of the impact of decisions that you make and how strategic these need to be. And I wasn't eager. I was in senior management as a teacher. So that whole strategy has always been part of like, the way I try and address something. But at the same time, it's been very, because you're alone, this is great. You can literally make a decision one day and go, I made this great business plan two days ago. And then you learn something new you go, scrap that I'll do with something else now, you know, so it was like, yeah, it was a business plan. But it was very sort of organic and evolving. How I want it to evolve over time.

Angela Nicholson: 6:05

Yeah. And when you're thinking about switching, like, say, you could go next day, I gotta do something completely different. Do you actually sit down and rewrite your business plan? First, we just get on with it, and then think I need to rewrite that?

Emily Renier: 6:16

No, no, I'll just get on with it. The great thing about you owning your business is you don't have to, you know, prove anything to anyone. I don't have to take my report to anyone. So it's I think, I suppose it's important to have a clear direction, even if that direction changes the next day, at least to to know which step you're going, am I going north east, west south, having that first step, and then once you take that first step, you go, well, I might go slightly West, or slightly east, but you know, you kind of, yeah, it's having the first direction that's important. It was great to kind of go from teaching and the education sector where you have to the admin side is insane, to not having to really do any sort of admin to that scale even or having to prove yourself to a different, you know, different hierarchy of management. It was such a sort of breath of fresh air in that sense.

Angela Nicholson: 7:09

Yeah. But I guess there are in times of uncertainty, sometimes it's nice to look back and just sort of think no, no, this is what I plan. This is, this is what I will, I'm going to do.

Emily Renier: 7:17

Yeah, yeah, definitely. uncertainty and, and, you know, I'm a bit of a control freak, because I get really anxious about life generally. So the more of a plan I have, the kind of the, the easier life is for me. So I'm a great believer in big to do lists and, and stuff like that. So I do love having a plan. But I also am quite happy to change my plan. And that's definitely, as being a business owner, you cannot change your plan, because you have to respond all the time to your clients or to strains or to, to how things develop, if you want to survive, especially in our industry, where things are so saturated at the moment, you've really got to be responsive to everything that happens on a daily basis.

Angela Nicholson: 7:58

Yes, that's very true. How did you know that you were actually ready to start charging for weddings or for your photographic work?

Emily Renier: 8:06

You know, that is such a good, good question. I I knew right from the beginning, I needed to charge something because although, you know, my husband was earning, you know, a good wage I could, he could support me and I really wanted to contribute. And that was important to me. And I like to kind of have my own independence financially. So I needed to charge just for that element of my my well being. But also, you know, if we if you're going to do a job professionally, it needs to be sustainable over time. And you might do one or two shoots for free for portfolio sake. But after that you very quickly begin to resent is not the right word. But you very quickly begin to understand your worth. Because you think, Well, I've just spent four hours your family took me two hours to travel and back. Now I'm going to spend a day in the studio, you know, editing your pictures, why should I give all that to you for free, or for an amount that's not you know, that's not worth what it is. So it's very much a case of in order for me to keep turning up to my jobs and and I had to stand up for my worth. And have in that sense, it kind of also developed a really healthy relationship between you and your clients because you're saying, This is me and I'm worth respecting, and I'm worth my wage and your investment in me. So here's a question you asked because there was definitely a point where I was too cheap. And I was too worried about putting my prices up and in all fairness, like, you know, if I'm totally honest, I have that conversation with myself still now thinking well, are my prices too high? Am I taking the Mick or they're too low or you know, you're constantly having that kind of mentor debate. And at the end of the day is all about making it sustainable and having healthy boundaries and a healthy relationship with your clients and you saying to the world, this is me, I'm worth it. I'm going to stand up for myself and you know, I've worked with lots of clients where, where they might be really affluent to not so affluent. And what they all had in common is, is understanding that what we give them as photographers is something that they can't do themselves. And as soon as you're giving something to someone that they can't do themselves, that automatically gives it quite an important value. But yeah, it's not an easy. It's not an easy right or wrong, or black and white. And I do really feel for people who start up because it's a, it's a leap of faith, but you've got to take that leap, and it makes you feel great in the long term.

Angela Nicholson: 10:35

Looking back at the very first wedding that you shot that you actually charged for, how did that go? How did you feel about it?

Emily Renier: 10:42

You know, I still remember the time when the brides were, well, it was fun for a mate of mine that I went to school with, and the brides walked down the aisle together. And my knees were shaking, I still remember feet shaking all over thinking I cannot get this wrong, you know, and it was it was really tricky wedding tissue as well, because it was November wedding. And it was in a band with no natural light whatsoever. And I don't use flash until the dance, you know, kind of time. So it was I was using my 62 at the time and I was really pushing the ISO to its limit so but there was nothing like it like to be my own boss at that time and create memories for those for those two brides. And then delivering that gallery. It was just the best feeling ever. And then that's what you kind of get hooked on the the element of Yeah, being able to create something so emotionally powerful for people. So yeah, but I did really I do still remember it. Now this shaking in the knees. I don't have any more thing. Thank God, I still have a healthy, you know, kind of dose of nerves for sure. But not not to that degree.

Angela Nicholson: 11:57

When you're shooting, are you so in the moment you just kind of work through the day, you know, go through the various stages of wedding taking photographs, or do you sometimes capturing images? Oh, yes. Yes, that's the one. I'm really happy with that.

Emily Renier: 12:11

Yeah, both both. You know, and it also really depends on the wedding and the day. And that that's also been an element of like, my learning journey, because there's, initially I used to give myself such a hard time if, if I wasn't feeling it, you know, there's, I don't know, if you feel the same way when you take your camera out on the streets or, or anywhere in the garden. And there's days when you just don't feel it. Now, what do you do when you know someone's paid you a large amount of money and and you don't feel it? Well, there's there's kind of elements of formula you follow to make sure that you're doing everything you can for that client, for sure. You can't help that sometimes that's just going to be the case, but you're not feeling the flow is like that kind of amazing life force you feel when everything clicks in together. The majority of the time I'm, I'm lucky, it does click in and it does happen. I suppose A good example would be the wedding I shot this weekend when everything just was fantastic. Like, the weather was just perfect, it was overcast outside, so didn't have to deal with harsh, you know, harsh shadows. But the the light came out at seven o'clock, when I needed a golden hour to come out. It was fantastic. And the crowd was brilliant. But it but I also had time to kind of shoot what was banal than normal about a wedding as well as the key moments, and the things that make it so memorable. So it is a case of kind of doing the formula and thinking, right, that's what my client needs and wants from me. But also then need to kind of go right, this is Emily, and her style and her voice. Now, what do I provide a slightly different, which is essentially what my client decided to come to me for. So it's an element of both, you have to kind of go, what's the formula? I need to follow that plus, okay, what what's really doing it for me now, or there's that moment over there, or there's that bit of geometry in that shot over there that's really kind of captured my attention. So it's a combination of both and you can't sometimes you have to rely more on one and then the other depending on the energy that you have.

Angela Nicholson: 14:16

If you're having a day when you're not feeling it that much and there's not that much energy around Do you have any strategies that can really pull you through beyond having a shot list and knowing that you've got to tick these boxes, how you get the Emily into the photos.

Emily Renier: 14:31

What I tend to try and do is to hit a good question again, Angela, because you know that these inevitably happen. It all comes down to the emotion and the feeling and and is trying to reengage with with the feeling in the room and what's important to the bride and groom. And kind of thinking like what's the story behind this couple? What did they tell me on this zoom? You know what, what material have I bought to make this meaningful for that for them and that's what I try and and dig into. Yeah, it doesn't always, you know, happen. Sometimes I've shot weddings where it's a very clinical sort of, you know, wedding where there's only 1520 people and it's a registry office that's not particularly particularly fantastic and the lights not great. And people are quite sort of morose and, and the energy is low. What do you do when that happens? Well, you do the best you can and, and to a certain degree, you have to this, there's this amazing phrase that John Dolan and an amazing American wedding photographer came up with recently. And, in fact, he said to me, you've got to grieve the potential of an image if you can't have that potential, and you've got to grieve that that potential really quickly, so you can move on to the next thing. And he said that to me about a year ago, and it really stayed with me, it's kind of this, this thing of like, what I've got to come to terms that I can't have this the way that I want it to be, all I can do is deal with that situation, I'm given to the best of my ability. And then if I do that, then I know that I've given my client the best that I could for them. But yeah, sometimes that's just real life. Sometimes you just given something that's fairly clinical. And, you know, there's nothing you can do about it. But as long as you do your best, and that's all they can ask of you.

Angela Nicholson: 16:16

Yes, that's true. What would you say were the biggest challenges that you faced in your career so far?

Emily Renier: 16:23

The biggest challenge is not my clients, it's dealing with myself or my own expectations of what I should deliver. Perhaps that is, it's me. Yeah, my biggest challenge is me, Angela.

Angela Nicholson: 16:37

Fair enough. I mean, now you're a Fujifilm ambassador, or an ex photographer, as they called, how did that come about? And what kind of impact has that had on you or your career?

Emily Renier: 16:48

You're full of amazing questions today. Thank you very much. So how did that come about? In 2017 18, when I took the, you know, the plunge of leaving one carerr jumping into the next, I was using Nikon at that time. And then I went to the Birmingham photography show and and found fuji film there through Kevin Mullins, and then basically bought my camera today after I saw Kevin talk. So in 2018, I've stayed with Fuji all that time. And and what was remarkable is that from one day to the next, I basically couldn't stop taking pictures. So I had to use an econ and saying, Well, I'm not sure about what I'm doing, whether that's right or wrong, and would leave the economy, you know, area of my house and not use it again. And at the moment, I bought my sd two, which was the first camera that I bought, I just took pictures every day. And so I then started to share what I took. And when that you know, on Instagram, mainly. And I think that a year and a half ago, I was approached by Fujifilm to see whether we could collaborate for a little while and work together on blog pieces and articles. And I did and the relationship kind of evolved from there. And yeah, in January, they made me a new ambassador. For me, that was like, the biggest moment like that was such a, an amazing moment. Because, you know, I, I don't know if you know, kind of the background of my story. But when I left my previous career, I'd left in a really poor sales really poorly, mentally, I'd had a kind of catastrophic mental breakdown, and so on. I was, you know, I the height of my career, in that kind of, you know, industry. And so from my perspective, I had to start from scratch with photography and and what it meant to be asked by Fujifilm, it meant, yeah, it's amazing. And it's a fantastic honour in itself. But for me, it meant, oh, wow, I can actually pick myself up again, I can a really tough time, but I could go back from square one and try again. And that's what it meant to me at the time. Now. What he's what it's done to me as, as my career, it's actually shown me that I'm probably more capable of things than I give myself credit for. Because, like, you know, a while ago, you know, I think well, I can't do podcasts interview, I can't, you know, I can't do that. And here I am doing one or I can't go to corporate dues and you know, do the home and socialising and I did that and work I couldn't possibly like travel, you know and with Fujifilm and and I can't I don't have those social skills really kind of unnerved me Well, I've been able to do that. So it's been a case of kind of like, showing to me that Oh, actually, I can do all these things do they're not as frightening as I thought they would be. And as long as I kind of stay the person that I am and remain as you know kind of loyal to me as a person or as authentic as I can be then and people are right with that well then that's okay, you know, and there's there's no problem with it. So the effect that it has on my career I guess it's shown me that I'm that I can see Yes. Small that you know, I don't have to kind of go automatically No, I don't think I can do that. It's kind of like yeah, actually, I could so it's it's changed me The sense that I can say yes to opportunities more.

Angela Nicholson: 20:03

Do you think it's the fact that you're part of a creative community as in, you know, the Fujifilm creators and ex photographers, it's all about your creativity and what you can make with your camera, rather than, you know, as a, as a teacher having to meet lots of targets and get kids through all their exams, and all that sort of stuff is a very different kind of feeling. Do you think that's helped?

Emily Renier: 20:29

Yeah, massively, because in a sense, that's kind of, you know, yes, I left the teaching world for many, many reasons. But definitely one of the lesser reasons was that I'd, I had gone into teaching, because I am a sort of, you know, warm sort of creative person that I wanted to infuse with children around me, but definitely, as a deputy head teacher, you just, you know, in the school that I was working at, that's not some, that's not the platform I was given. So I couldn't use that creativity. And then now one day, from one day to the next day, I can just make my own images and kind of go with the flow. And what was been amazing about Fujifilm is like, you know, right from the beginning of the start of the kind of relationship is I've, I've been determined to kind of stay myself and, and, you know, I, I can be, you know, sometimes silly, or I can say, you know, like, I will say the wrong things that come into my head, I'm very spontaneous. And I've always kind of stayed the person that I am, they've always kind of just accepted me exactly as I am. They've never kind of said, Oh, can you not do a bit of this? Or can you stop doing that? And so it's been really kind of validating, you know, this kind of go? Well, we're signing up to Emily. So whether Emily's creative flow goes, and that's, that's great, you know, and, yeah, I mean, sometimes I get a request for images. And I'll send a few and they might not choose any from that kind of crop, but it's fine, because they've also got their agenda. And they've also, you know, the reality of, of it, is there a camera company, they've got to sell cameras. And you know, that's a relationship that's got to work for both of us. So, but so far, it's, I have found that they kind of, yeah, it's validating in, in a lot of sense.

Angela Nicholson: 22:09

Nice. I noticed that you offer a mentoring service for photographers, what would you say are the most common issues that people face or would like to discuss with you when you're talking to them?

Emily Renier: 22:21

It's insecurity. It's kind of like pricing is is massive there. And I kind of give a lot, you know, I'd give advice on pricing for, for weddings. Again, I'd give advice with a caveat that, you know, I struggle myself too. But overall, it's it's kind of needing a guiding sort of voice. And with mentoring, the most important thing is kind of the aspect of listening, a bit like counselling, if you like that you kind of let the person evolve with their own path, because that's also very important when you're trying to figure out what kind of artist you want to be. But it is, it's almost like they want they kind of say, well, this is a problem that I have, well, this is what I'm thinking, what do you think, and it's about kind of saying, Well, this is what I think, but ultimately, this is your business and your vision. And it's got to match with what you want to do with it. I like to think that it's validating choices, rather than change their mind or kind of, you know, or giving an alternative principle is validating a vision for them and steering it in a slightly in one direction, rather than kind of saying, No, we need to go completely a different angle. Because the thing is, with photography, as all of your listeners will know is that there's a million ways of doing things. And even if you do things commercially, you can ask one question to 10 different photographers, and you'll end up with 10 different answers. And all you want really, I think, as a photographer, when you're asking me for advice is a reassurance that you're okay, and that you know, you're trying your best, and is this best, okay? And when I got mentoring from Kevin, initially, because I signed up to lose one to one for the first year. And that's essentially what he did with me said, Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. And that's what I needed from him. And so that's what I try and provide for, for the people I work with.

Angela Nicholson: 24:11

Now, I think it's very important to have a distinction between mentoring and teaching. They are quite different things. But mentoring is a very powerful tool aswell.

Emily Renier: 24:21

Yeah, you're right, they are completely different things. And I suppose it's funny because like, you know, with all the, like experience I have of teaching, you could argue well, for me, it would be kind of an easier approach but like you say, it is a completely different thing. And obviously teaching and mentoring adults to children is a completely different world anyway. But with with the life experiences that I've gone through in the last kind of six years, and going through a mental breakdown, you do kind of readjust completely about what is actually important and how important and significant and essential our mental well being is to to our daily lives. So I try and make that is a really important aspect of the way that I deal with people. Because, you know, we give ourselves such a hard time. It's such a visually comparative if I can say that like industry where you can go on Instagram and go, Oh, they're doing this, they must be doing so well. And it is all smoke and mirrors, you know, we all struggling in our own way. And, and I think that if we can try and all us photographers have the kind of struggle amnesty where we will saying, Well, you know, it might look like we're doing really well, but we are working really hard and we are struggling in other ways, then I think it would make the whole industry feel better about itself.

Angela Nicholson: 25:36

Yeah, that's a good idea. Okay, well, I think it's a really good time to go for Six from SheClicks. I've got 10 Questions from SheClickers and I'd like you to answer six of them, please, by picking numbers from one to 10. So if I could have your first number, please?,

Emily Renier: 25:50

Two.

Angela Nicholson: 25:51

This is a nice one. What is your favourite part of a wedding? That's from Caroline,

Emily Renier: 25:56

Can I have two favourite parts? That's so hard.My favourite part.

Angela Nicholson: 26:01

Go on, you can have two,

Emily Renier: 26:03

I can have two.

Angela Nicholson: 26:04

Because there are lots of parts of a wedding. So I think to fair.

Emily Renier: 26:07

Okay, so the walking down the aisle always gets me especially when it's the dad walking down the aisle. I'm this weird, contradictory person that I'm not particularly traditional person, but because my father passed away three years ago, and I had, you know, a complex relationship with him. Like what as soon as I see that, it really kind of are almost always syrup. Even now, if I do 4040 weddings a year, I could still tearing up when, when that happens a bit really ridiculous. And then the second aspect is the speeches. What I love about them is because they they give me like a different kind of context to to all the people that I'm dealing with. So you learn all of the different dimensions of the bride and the groom and what they've been through in their lives. And you'd be surprised I literally haven't attended a wedding where there's been some sadness in the past of a wedding, you know, a couple or some sort of stories that people have to share. And it just makes you realise that everyone, whoever you are, everyone's had their share of struggle or their share of, of difficulties. And and it gives you Yeah, like this extra dimension to the people you're dealing with. And it's very powerful.

Angela Nicholson: 27:16

Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. Can I have your second number, please?

Emily Renier: 27:21

Seven?

Angela Nicholson: 27:22

What makes you pick up your camera when you're not working? And that question is from Liz.

Emily Renier: 27:27

Light, so any sort of nice light, which is pretty much every light for me, because I didn't think there was such a thing as bad light. But it like say if I mean, I go past like a room in my house, and is this beautiful? I don't know, golden hour light that shimmering on the wall, and it could be a wall with nothing on I think God has to be like, I will pick up my camera and take pictures of light. I've got awesome pictures of just like that mean nothing. But it feels like you're trying kind of catch a pot of gold when you're taking a picture of beautiful light. So yeah, that's what will make me pick up my camera. Okay, if you haven't got a wedding for a weekend, would you go out with your camera and take some photos? Or do you do other things? I tend to, I mean, I will do other things. But I tend to have a camera with me pretty much everywhere. And that enables me to kind of quickly take a shot if I want to. So yeah, I tend to have a camera with me all the time, just in case because every time I don't and I'll go somewhere, and I go you know what, I'm just not going to bother taking my cameras. I always end up regretting it so I can't, you know, can't do it.

Angela Nicholson: 28:35

Yes, I know exactly what you mean. I've actually gone back into the house before now I've locked the door though. No, no, I can't go. I couldn't go back and get the camera. You never know what's out there.

Emily Renier: 28:46

Exactly.

Angela Nicholson: 28:47

So can I have your third number please? Nine number line. What is your usual photography kit? And if you could only take one lens, what would it be? And quite a few people asked that question.

Emily Renier: 29:00

So I shoot with three cameras two X-H2s and one X- T5. I have the two X-H2s on a harness and the X-T5 on my belt and I use the two X-H2s for my 56mm and 18mm. This is crop sensor and the X-T5 will have the 23mm on it usually or the 33mm depending. My favourite lens is the 18mm because I can basically I can crop down from there if I need to. But it gives me the flexibility to go as wide as I need to.

Angela Nicholson: 29:35

So you're all about prime lenses? You don't use Zoom so much?

Emily Renier: 29:39

I have the one 8-16mm for the dance floor that I have found that really helpful. The f/2.8 Yeah, it's really really good. So I will use that for the dance floor. But during the day, which is you know, I I'm only on the dance for about an hour. So yeah, the majority of the day or the nine other hours will be just primes, I tend to kind of I'm moving on, I'm a very sort of physical photographer, and I kind of, you know, mingle with guests and come in and out of like a group. So yeah, it's a zoom really wouldn't be the right choice for me.

Angela Nicholson: 30:18

Right. Okay. So could I have your fourth number, please?

Emily Renier: 30:22

Eight.

Angela Nicholson: 30:23

You touched on this slightly before, but how do you deal with clients who have unrealistic expectations? A few people asked that.

Emily Renier: 30:30

Ah well, that's been a learning journey. To begin with, I used to take it incredibly, personally. Uh huh. I could get like an email at eight o'clock in the evening. And then, like, be writing a draft for an hour trying to think of how to respond to a client that, you know, would have rattled me slightly. Now I just, basically, I just put myself in their shoes, because they don't have they're not, you know, they don't have the the understanding that we do of what goes into the job. So now it's all about, I tend to kind of put myself in their shoes and approach it eyes with far more empathy. So I don't think I can remember in the last year or so that I've had, yeah, no, I haven't had really a difficult guide. The only thing that I happened at a wedding recently is that father of the groom, was really rude to me, in front of other guests. It really affected me for the rest of the day. I didn't say anything, because I thought, well, this isn't, this isn't fair on the bride, you know, I've got a bride never asked for her father in law to be rude. So I don't want to spoil anything to do with her day. And so I dealt with it that way. But I tend to kind of if it's by email, or if it's a bride, same, I'm not happy about something. I don't want to sound big headed, please don't think I am. But it literally just doesn't happen. And it also because I think as I you know, I also think British people are incredibly polite. So even if your, your complaints can often sound like compliments, sometimes that you will kind of go, thank you so much for the images, but I don't suppose you know, you'd be able to kind of like, you know, say you're so kind and nice to where you ask for something that it tends to be then a conversation or Yeah, of course, I can do that. And I'll go in, and kind of, you know, deal with their request, if it's something that's, that is so impossible to do, then I will just tell them, but you know, kind way and I often pick up the phone, and so they can hear the tone of my voice and make it a dialogue. But like I said, I deal with very relaxed people. So it doesn't tend to happen very much. And if I do empathy goes a very long way.

Angela Nicholson: 32:38

But it's like you touched on earlier, you said that, you know, you attract the clients who who want to use so you know, they've gone to your website, and they've gone to your Instagram account. And they've seen the sort of photographs that you you create. And that's what they want, and they know what you do. And so their expectations is kind of set out at the start and you have a conversation with them. You mentioned you have a zoom call, so you can talk through what you're going to do on the day. So hopefully, that's kind of you're managing it before there's a problem.

Emily Renier: 33:03

Yeah, that's right. I mean that, you know, the, what's really important is to have as many filters as possible, so that all of the clients that you're not wanting to, to work with kind of get filtered out naturally. Yes, there will be some times when you end up having a bride who will say Oh, can you go and shoot all that detail shoe and do that, which is not what I do at all? And I kind of think, well, where did how did how did that happen? And where does she Why does she think oh, I would do that? And then I kind of remind myself that he or she thinks is I'm a wedding photographer, she does, you know, she doesn't have necessarily a wider context. So I've got a if the empathy that kicks in and goes, well, no, I'm, I'm dealing, I'm going to provide the images that this bride wants because it's her. It's her wedding day. But yeah, the branding, generally. And you know, the way that I am on a zoom session with my clients is either share almost immediately, we might kind of you know, swear online or we might kind of say stupid things for each other and, and that automatically kind of shows that I'm gonna go at this like a really relaxed person. And absolutely at zoom level, I have lost clients because they go well, no, that's not right for me. And that's fine, because that's exactly what a zoom session is designed for. If someone doesn't book me after that, I'm actually think would this is great, because we wouldn't have worked out together on the day if you believe that I'm not the right person for you now. So yeah, a good natural filter is is really important.

Angela Nicholson: 34:27

Do you ever do the reverse where you know you have a conversation with your clients, they're willing to go for it, but you sort of think Well, no, I don't think they actually want what I provide. So you say I don't think I'm the right photographer for you.

Emily Renier: 34:39

I do that now more that I'm more confident in fact, you know, when you said what has Fujifilm done for you, bit like the Romans. It has given me confidence is giving me confidence to go actually, I can I can decline and I can put myself first here. But in all seriousness, it doesn't happen often this She's out of so far, I'm not shooting as many weddings this year as last year, because it's a bit of a blip year for the industry. So I'm, I think I'm doing about 20 something. And there's only one that I turned down. And I basically said, I, you know, I don't think we're, we're gonna be a good fit on the day, but I can recommend someone else for you. And they came back to me said, Yes, we had the same feeling. So it's, you know, it's, it tends to be a an open kind of conversation, I have to say that in the past, I have done it in a sense that I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but I'm no longer available, rather than saying we're not going to be a good fit, because I have a bit of a whim but like it, I don't want to offend people second, so I have to say, sorry, I'm not I'm no longer available. And I've done that a couple of times before. But I've got a good filter. You know, in terms of of my brand, I think it's strong enough. So I don't, it doesn't happen all that often. And like I said, it's a blip year for the industry. So photographers would be lying if they said that they, they were turning down lots of jobs this year, because it's a not a lot of work out there. So you tend to have more flexible with what you're, you're willing to take on because like this year, I'm travelling a lot further. I'm doing a wedding in Germany, a wedding in Scotland. And I'm actually not a huge fan of destination weddings, because for me, it's just more time away from my family and I have different priorities. But this year, you know, I think we're okay. The inquiries aren't coming in as fast and furious as they were last year. So yep, I'll go to Germany for three days. Yeah, I'll go to Scotland for three days, because that's where the work is. So it's, you know, it comes with depends if you have a lot of work coming your way or not, and how willing you are to turn it down.

Angela Nicholson: 36:48

Yes. Okay, can I have your fifth number, please?

Emily Renier: 36:52

Let's go for 10 then.

Angela Nicholson: 36:54

Number 10. Okay, so what's the one piece of advice you'd give aspiring wedding photographers? And that question is from Philippa.

Emily Renier: 37:02

Remember that it's all smoke and mirrors. So if you go out and on Instagram, and it looks like all you're seeing is amazing images, remember that those photographers are only showing you the best images that they have. And if there's a situation that you see that the way it looks like someone's doing really well remember that only ever kind of curating the best of what they've got available to show. So give yourself a break. And remember that as long as you're doing the best that you can, so you can ask them yourself.

Angela Nicholson: 37:33

I think that's a great point, a really important one for your self esteem and mental health as well. Yeah,

Emily Renier: 37:39

100%. And, you know, I think we we underestimate, like the amount of hard work. I mean, you know, if we, if we think about it in terms of SheClicks and female, kind of, you know, industry in terms of photography, I will say this, and it's probably controversial, but we women put 6,000,000% into our work when they go out and shoot, we work so hard. And I think that we are capable as agenda to put ourselves under so much pressure. And I might be wrong, you know, I'm open to conversation. But that's definitely the feeling that I get from being a woman myself, and the conversation that I have with women photographers, as opposed to male photographers. Now we all you know, all genders will suffer from mental health issues, for sure. But yes, we have a tendency to try and find fault with what we do, as opposed to automatically celebrating what we do. So I think that it's kind of like trying to remind ourselves, we can celebrate what we do. And that doesn't sound arrogant. We can say actually, I'm doing really well. I'm really proud of myself. And that's not arrogant. That's just an assertion that's actually really healthy for our mental well being. So yeah, definitely. Don't give yourself such a hard time.

Angela Nicholson: 39:01

Yes. Great point. Yeah, I agree. So it's really important to celebrate those successes, small ones, as well as the big ones, but just to let people know that something's gone really well, and you're happy about it, and actually makes everyone feel good. So we should all do that more often.

Emily Renier: 39:15

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's amazing when, you know, I've done lots because like, like I said earlier, I've got quite bad anxiety. So I've done lots of kind of therapy and counselling and, and all sorts in. And it's amazing what just putting your shoulders back in putting your head up just that action. That's insane what it has on your well being. If you're feeling down and suddenly you start you sit up and you put your shoulders back and you put your head up. Your body's kind of saying, No, Emily, you you're you're enough, you're okay. And so because your body's doing it, your mind kind of half believes it. So it's quite a powerful action to do. And it's very simple and takes half a second very good point. Yes.

Angela Nicholson: 39:57

Okay, can I have your final number then please?

Emily Renier: 40:00

Five, have I said five before?

Angela Nicholson: 40:02

You haven't said five before. Okay, this is this is a funny one. What is your idea of photography Hell? Is the type of shoot you would avoid at all costs. That's from Ann.

Emily Renier: 40:14

Ah, photography hell for me is newborn shoot in flowerpots. That's photography hell for me in a studio where we put newborns in these really weird, unnatural positions. I could not bring myself to do that. But each their own. I mean, you know, I this is not criticism. It's just what I just wouldn't do it.

Angela Nicholson: 40:37

Fair enough. Well, Emily, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been really delightful speaking with you, and thank you for answering all those questions.

Emily Renier: 40:46

You're very welcome. Great questions. Really enjoyed responding. Thank you.

Angela Nicholson: 40:51

Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. You'll find links to Emily's website and social media channels in the show notes. I'll be back with another episode soon. So please subscribe to the show on your favourite podcast platform and tell all your friends and followers about it. You'll also find she clicks on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube if you search for sheclicksnet. So until next time, enjoy your photography.