Verity Milligan: 0:04

If fog forecast, I will jump out of bed like a bread out of a toaster, like I'm out there, it doesn't even cross my mind to be tired or I'll probably be awake before my alarm, just sort of tapping my fingers like right I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go. Because the idea of getting somewhere and there is a rush, you know, there is a rush to, to seeing somewhere in conditions that you don't see very often. And to think, Oh, I get to capture this and I get to share it. And I think the sharing element is definitely part of that.

Angela Nicholson: 0:37

Welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson, and I'm the founder of SheClicks which is community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I talk with women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them, and how they got to where they are now. Our guest today is Verity Milligan, an award-winning photographer and content creator based in Birmingham in the UK. She's best known for her photographs of Birmingham and capturing the beauty and diversity of the natural world. But she also creates content for some internationally recognised brands, and is a long standing judge for the landscape Photographer of the Year. Hi, Verity. Thank you so much for joining me today on the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast.

Verity Milligan: 1:17

Thank you for having me. I'm a big fan of SheClicks. So it's really good to be on the podcast.

Angela Nicholson: 1:21

Oh, thank you very much. What is great to have a chance to chat with you because I know we often go to the same events, but we only ever seem to get to talk very fleetingly. So it's really nice to have a proper chat. So maybe you could start right at the beginning. And can you tell me what drew you to photography as a career, and it was always going to be your career?

Verity Milligan: 1:39

No, I'm a bit of a typical millennial in the sense that I don't know I never really had a career path. It was the one thing to control and other things. So I was on a really academic career path. So I had done my masters, I was planning on going down a PhD route, not related to photography, it's all related. I did my Master's in American visual culture, so much more theoretical, academic based, and they kind of pivoted and ended up running an independent cinema for a while, which was great. So I was fun. Yeah, it was really good fun, and then pivoted again and went back into academia and started lecturing in media theory, and the practical side of documentary filmmaking. So I was teaching undergrads how to make movies, basically, it was really, really good fun. And then the photography was a real hobby to begin with. And it gradually built up alongside my conventional career path to the point where I had this kind of fork in the road, where do I continue down the academic route? Finally, get my PhD? Try and become a professor? And do that? Or do I jump off and become a freelancer and see what photography brought? It took a long time to make that decision, but I've watched every braid, and then jump off and see what photography brought to my life. With the idea that, you know, I can always go back into academia at some point.

Angela Nicholson: 3:05

Yeah. So I mean, if you were teaching students about how to make movies, you must have been what using a camera and filming and stuff at some point before that.

Verity Milligan: 3:15

Yeah, I did a lot of sort of documentary filmmaking in my guess, and only 20. So working as a runner on various productions and just getting involved in the West Midlands film industry. Yeah, I don't know why it's sort of the practical side of things. As I worked at the cinema, I also had a role as a technician. So I was surrounded by kit, photography kit, video kit, and I just picked up skills from there. And then that kind of led one thing led to another and I was at the University of Leicester is where I taught and it was, it's a very theoretical redbrick, so there was just me doing this practical base stuff, which was really good fun, but it was very much a kind of one module in a bigger degree that was much more theoretical base. So they got to come along to my module in the middle of the three year degree and have fun. So I always felt like yeah, I'm the fun one come and have fun and my documentary filmmaking module and get away from the theory for a bit but yeah, so there wasn't an I picked up a camera stills camera when I was 25. So I set about 16 years ago now and really enjoying the process of taking still images and how it's so much quicker than doing video. So yeah, that was really good.

Angela Nicholson: 4:37

It really is. I love shooting video and editing it but you're right, stills are so much quicker to deal with.

Verity Milligan: 4:44

I'm trying to start a YouTube channel at the minute so I'm getting back into that Premiere Pro full-on edit the rest of it really nice about getting lost in an edit and losing hours and hours and hours, but it's just it's just so much more time consuming, though. Well, you know, shooting and editing one singular image. So it's good to retrain my brain, I think to concentrate for a longer time span.

Angela Nicholson: 5:10

Editing video, I find it very, very absorbing. But do you find that you're the sort of person who keeps going back and then you just want to tweak a bit more and a bit more. And then if you've made that tweak, then you need to make that tweak to all the other clips as well. And you keep just continually editing.

Verity Milligan: 5:24

Yeah. Are you also a perfectionist? Because absolutely, I can't leave it alone. I have this one edit done and it's done. And now it's done. I just have to like, cross the I's and cross cross the i's, cross the t's and dot the I's and then export it and it's done. But I'm like, Well, maybe, maybe I need to make that show. Yeah, it's it's, I could go on forever. And to my detriment, I think but at the same time, you know, I guess, being a perfectionist is, it's part of being creative on some level.

Angela Nicholson: 5:59

Yeah. So you shoot like three hours, and you come up with a two minute video.

Verity Milligan: 6:04

Or more like me shoot 13 hours. And, you know, have so much B roll. I don't know what to do with because when I was teaching documentary filmmaking, that was what we'd hammer home that you need footage, like one, get your sound, right, because if he sounds not right, to get it, it's not gonna work and to shoot way more than you think you need. Because you can never have enough footage. But I figured, probably take that to the extreme.

Angela Nicholson: 6:30

So your YouTube channel isn't live yet?

Verity Milligan: 6:32

It's not I have this one. Like I've done a video in Northumberland, it's ready to roll. My wife helped me out. So she was like my second shooter. So she did those shots of you know, the colour. I don't want to do but typical landscape stuff, but some of the stuff you kind of have to do where you bought the camera, and kind of slow mo turn to look at the scene. Yeah, it's all ready to go. But yeah, it's just, it's just finally sort of hitting that button. Because there's a and I don't know, if if you found this, when suddenly, you become the product. Rather than just the photo that you're putting out there. It's scary. Because I can hide behind a social media edifice and be like, this is just the image does the talking. And yet, when it's a video, there's nowhere to hide. So it's me. And it makes me a little bit vulnerable. So I think that's part of why I haven't quite got round just hitting the go button on it yet, but I'm getting there taken a long time.

Angela Nicholson: 7:34

Now, that's interesting, I can totally understand that. But I would also say that YouTube is a lot friendlier than it used to be used to be, I would say something of a bear pit. But now it's, it's a lot friendlier. And I think you build up your audience and your audience will be similar people to yourself, you know, friendly individuals who want to know what Verity is up to what she filmed me what she's shooting today, I think you'll be fine.

Verity Milligan: 7:58

Thank you, I appreciate the encouragement that really does help you, right, you build up your niche, right. And I feel like in a, this made me go slightly off topic. But in a creative world where we're, we're kind of going up against the AI and what that's going to bring the journey and documenting that journey feels even more important. Because not to sound like a sort of GCSE maths, but if you can show you're working out, then people know how you got to that image. And it feels like you're taking them with you rather than just presenting this, this thing that, you know, doesn't necessarily have a start point, but they're just seeing the end point.

Angela Nicholson: 8:36

I think that's exactly why on Instagram, people love to see the picture. And then they'd love to see the behind the scenes is exactly that sort of thing. And it's all those lots of photographers and non photographers who want to know how you captured that particular image. You know, where were you? What was your viewing point? What were your decision processes, all of that sort of stuff. So, yeah, I look forward to saying that. So press the button. So back to photography, you moved into photography, you said you just took a leap, although it was a sort of slow motion leap that didn't happen straightaway. How did you start finding your first clients?

Verity Milligan: 9:09

Ahh. And I don't take this for granted. But they found me. And that's been really wonderful. Because what I did was share the stuff that I like to take photos of, especially around Birmingham, and cityscape star. And I'm from that a car platform emerged that I stepped onto and people would then come to me and say, Oh, we really like your pitches and this would you consider taking pictures of this? And oddly, sometimes those two weren't related. But it was like the stuff I really love to shoot became this calling card of a guess what they perceive to be quality. And, and then yeah, and I had a woe betide. I had a article in the Daily Mail, which showed off my images of Birmingham and that did a lot of good for people sort of discovering her was I got my first few big commissions off the back of that, really. And it's kind of snowballed from there. And for the most part, that's still how I get a lot of my commercial work is sharing stuff I like to do and building up that reputation and having that somehow materialise into paid work. But, again, often the two necessary and some of them are some of them architectural, but it could be headshots, or it could be events, and they're not necessarily related to the work I love to do for me, but somehow a link is made and a bridge is made between these two, and it connects.

Angela Nicholson: 10:39

I think that actually, there's been quite a theme through the podcasts, I've talked to a lot of photographers, and they've said, they've spoken about the importance of personal projects and how that's, you know, you have that creative outlet, but that also pulls people towards you, because they connect, and they understand and they'd like they like what you're doing. And they want something similar, even though you might be shooting a completely different subject, they want that kind of look.

Verity Milligan: 11:01

Yeah, and that can be tricky. Because I've had some clients who they've come to me and they've got, I really love your sort of misty lake district work, we'd love for you to recreate that do something for us around that. But then it will be a rainy day in the middle of July. And there's no way of being able to recreate so that sort of managing those expectations is probably one of the hardest things about being a full time Freelancer that that I find anyway, that sort of saying that? Oh, no, absolutely. But if you want that, that's going to have to be November. And it's a very specific set of conditions that don't happen very often. So yeah, it's kind of just trying to manage that expectation. And, you know, find something that fits for the client. Because obviously, the last thing I want is disappointed clients. So be still keeping some of that original, I guess, atmosphere and feeling that they've seen in the original image into something that, you know, we're shooting on a rainy, rainy Tuesday in July.

Angela Nicholson: 12:02

So do you usually manage to persuade them to wait a few months or other occasions where you are actually stood there on that rainy July day? Thinking this just isn't gonna work? It's not right.

Verity Milligan: 12:13

Yeah, it's usually that. You know, most organisations, they want something and they want it yesterday. So that, that I've had some really lovely jobs where they've been given freedom to roam the countryside or find what I need, and then given the time to get the image that I need, but these are very few and far between them, they tend to be the bigger clients who've got big budgets, and, you know, they're happy to invest money in the time, whereas smaller organisations, it's much more about, ah, we need this. We need this now. And we need it to look good. So can we company just work with what we got, which is totally fine.

Angela Nicholson: 12:52

I guess you see companies at different scales and at different stages of the journey. And the fact is that they've realised that no, actually the person who puts the paper in the photocopier can't be the person who also takes the photographs on their phone, they need somebody more professional and that they need something a bit more evolved up to somebody who's got whole marketing team, and people who understand what good photography is and how long it takes. So you sort of depends which we should have organisation you're working with, I suppose.

Verity Milligan: 13:19

Absolutely. And I think part of being a freelancer is tailoring your approach to different organisations for that, you know, what I might charge for a big international organisation is not what I'm going to charge for a small business in Birmingham that just, there'd be a complete mismatch, if it was always just as one size fits all, approach and fee. So it's about that flexibility and being able to work at different levels, and on what a medium sized business wants, is probably expectation was a lot smaller than what an international organisation might want for an advertising campaign. So and this is where photography, and I think probably any kind of creative freelance life is one of the hardest careers, I think, because you're always having to adapt and change and, and just try and keep in that little nook where you're tailoring your approach to whoever has contacted you, whilst you know, also maintaining retime to create your own work, which I think is probably the hardest part is maintaining a sense of creativity and still having the love of photography and a love of getting outside and not not thinking, Oh, I don't want to get up for sunrise because I'm tired, but still having enough time to maintain my own creative practice. And that balance is hard. It's hard to find sometimes.

Angela Nicholson: 14:40

I can imagine. I just wanted to sort of step back a little bit and just comment that I have actually written down here that I was browsing your images, and I did notice the fact that you've got images of the city of Birmingham that sit perfectly comfortable alongside images of the Outer Hebrides and they do sit really well together. They do have a similar cohesive feel so Is that something you've worked really, really hard on? And you're constantly trying to do? Or is it something that is by virtue of the fact that you do get up before dawn and you always, you know, you look at the weather, and you pick the right light, and that kind of thing.

Verity Milligan: 15:12

You know, it's probably a combination of the two, because I think I do have a style. I don't think that was necessarily intentional. But I think the longer and you'll probably find this as well, the longer you do something, the more you develop your own style anyway, it's just sort of natural that you end up with your workflow. And you tend to, you know, obviously adapted for each image, but but it has a coherency and a thread that runs throughout. But I suppose yeah, lighting matters. Well, lighting is everything, isn't it? And I love working with pre Dawn conditions, Misty conditions. I mean, to be honest, if I only just worked with those, they'd probably never take a photo again, because they split again, few and far between but yeah, I suppose the coherency is what I'm looking for is the same thing, whether it's a seascape or cityscape, it's how it's how the light and the weather and the conditions are interacting with whatever's in the frame, wherever, whether it's, you know, a rocky foreground or a building in Birmingham, it's all about how I'm kind of conveying that light and trying to show off what's in the frame in the best light as well. And yeah, I've really enjoyed this two separate parts as well as I love the cityscape stuff. And, and I love the rural stuff as well. And it's nice to kind of be able to switch between the two, because I do think that they give me different things and they kind of satisfy my creative itch in different ways.

Angela Nicholson: 16:37

That's nice to know. So you're not when you're shooting in Burma, you think you're not thinking Oh, good grief. I wish it was in the Hebrides or and when you're in the Hebrides thinking, I wish I was at home and I could just pop outside and get a few photos of Birmingham.

Verity Milligan: 16:50

I don't think I'll ever wish to be anywhere but the Aberdeen is when I am always like, I don't want to leave here. But no, I don't. I don't. I suppose sometimes there's there's that pull, especially to places. I'm sure you have places that you love that. Whenever you go back to the you feel own. Definitely. And so there is a pool, but and I think it locked down and Coronavirus period kind of hammered that home. There's so much beauty to be found. Even I live in a very suburban area of Birmingham. But there's a park at the back of me. So even in the park, it may not be where you know, you're going to find blocks of landscape photographers arriving. But they go out there at five in the morning. And they're here the birdsong room at the risk of sounding ridiculously whimsical, but the blossom and the bluebells. And there's always something to find even if it's just at the back of back of the house. So and I think that really kind of I'm at home and some of the places that are close to glomming and like Sutton Park, and the canal system and I kind of re re at it. Yes, I'm in love with them all over again, when I wasn't able to travel forever. Yeah. And even getting back out into Birmingham after the lockdown.

Angela Nicholson: 18:12

Yeah, Birmingham has got a heck of a lot to offer. I mean, I've been lucky enough to go there a few times and you know, go out, taking photographs on a couple of occasions. And there's such a variety of stuff. You've got the extremely modern right next to canals and Victorian buildings and stuff. There's, you just turn a corner, there's a completely different scene.

Verity Milligan: 18:32

Yeah, and I love that kind of juxtaposition. It's really, really good fun. And I love applying it to other cities as well. So recently, I ran a workshop for the RPS in Manchester, and Manchester has got lots of that as well that new and old and canal systems running through it. And same with London, I love going down to London and just having a day there with my camera, the Philips city stuff as well that things change, and they move fast, way faster than they would if in a you know, a scene in Torridon or something and I love that kind of, you blink and you miss it. And I've had compositions that I've taken and I've gone back sort of six months ago, I could probably do that a bit better. I've gone back to where I took that and it's changed and I can't get that shot again. So and I've said this before, but you end up becoming this kind of, if you're if you're in one place for a long enough time, this unwitting documentarian because you end up capturing changes, it's happening. And buildings come up and buildings go down and abuse changing. And I love that. So I've got 10 years of this body of work and, and all of it is just showing a city that's in flux that's evolving constantly. And it feels nice to be part of that. It feels nice to hopefully had something at the end of my career, whatever that might be like that shows the way the city has changed and celebrates that as well. Yes.

Angela Nicholson: 19:59

Yeah, I think It's important, it's historic actually isn't it's a historical document effectively.

Verity Milligan: 20:04

When you see pictures for the 1950s, and they have a inherent appeal, because they're from a time that doesn't exist anymore. And it's really a really interesting kind of angle to, to separate what what is just historical, but what's also art. I think it is an interesting niche that my brain falls into sometimes, like, what, what is what is good? And what is just old enough to feel like it's good.

Angela Nicholson: 20:35

Now, you mentioned workshops, what made you start leading workshops,

Verity Milligan: 20:41

I suppose, because I come from a background of teaching, it felt like an obvious jump. It's not been easy at it, I think that the kind of approach that you would take the undergrads and 18 to 21 year olds is very different from the approach that you would take to adults who probably already know what they're doing for a certain extent. I mean, some people are beginners, but that kind of differentiation between people I think, is a lot more relevant when it comes to teaching people who, you know, across the spectrum, that aren't just there, because they have to be there. They're there because they want to be there and giving them value for money as well. Like, I want them to have the best experience. So it's not an obviously, I guess, so landscape photographers, but it feels like it's one of the ways one of the only ways I think that people who want to be a landscape photographer can really enjoy being out in the landscape, whilst also, I guess, earning money to a certain extent, although it's not really about that, of course, that's part of it. But I love I've had some workshop experiences that I love so much that they've really stuck with me where you will you bond with everybody. And people come away from it, not with just photographs, but this experience of being in this place. And all the kind of magic that comes around that as well like it, whether it's a wonderful sunrise, or whether it's been a week of rain, and everybody feels like they've been in the foxhole together. Yeah, so I think it's a wonderful way to connect.

Angela Nicholson: 22:10

Yeah, I can definitely see the appeal. And rule first time workshop, attendees can be a bit shy bit nervous, because they don't really know how it's all gonna go what to expect. How do you like to break the ice and make them feel comfortable?

Verity Milligan: 22:23

Find out what makes them tick creatively. So what is it that excites them? What kind of photo if they could take that photo? What? What would it look like? What would they be proud to show their family? But also, how do they feel about the outdoors? So I suppose I'm always trying to connect on an emotional level, which is might be a slightly different approach to from people who run workshops where it might be more about the technical and to me, I think from the outset, I don't care if you're shooting on an iPhone, or Hasselblad, it doesn't matter. What matters is how you feel about the scene in front of you. And are you connecting with that? And sometimes I prefer if they are shooting on an iPhone, this retarders I think cameras can get in the way. They they need to be a conduit, not a barrier. And I suppose that's probably what I tried to do a try to explain. On the first time on meeting a group of people is that this isn't really about that technical experience. It's about connecting with these beautiful landscapes and hopefully connecting with each other. And again, that might sound terrifically unemotional, and a bit I don't know, like I said, whimsical. But to me, that's what's important that the photos, just the cherry on top, that's just a way of saying, hey, look, this was beautiful. I get to show you how beautiful it is. But the experience is just, you know, that's the iceberg. And the Experience is everything that's underneath. So yeah, I think I just try and connect with someone on that level. And then hopefully, we can go from there and build a rapport and build, especially to build confidence. I think it's not always the case. But on the workshops that I've ran, maybe 80% of the women on them, maybe lack a little bit of confidence and need a bit more. And they tend to be just amazing photographers. They just haven't realised that yet. So it's my job to make them realise that.

Angela Nicholson: 24:36

That's great. I imagine that when you're saying to people that you know, it's about connecting with the landscape, and it's not about the technical aspects, there's quite a lot of people are internally going, thank goodness, there's not going to be a test on apertures and shutter speeds and they won't be looking at my tripod thinking on the no she got the wrong one there but I bet that helps people relax quite a lot.

Verity Milligan: 24:56

I hope so. Because I get a lot of people who say Oh, Oh, well, I've been told I have to shoot on manual. Where are you comfortable, what makes you happy? Shooting aperture priority. Great stay there, we'll work around it. The idea that there's this definitive set of rules that if you don't follow you won't be considered a good photographer is rubbish nine. Whatever makes the camera easier to use and you're more comfortable with it is far more important than what someone somewhere told them to do. Because I had tripods as well, people like, Oh, why don't you know, my tripod good enough or, like, I mean, if you don't want to shoot on a tripod, don't we'll find a way around it. I mean, I used to walk around with a bag of rice instead of a tripod, because it was so cumbersome. And yeah, and they still are, I hate carrying a tripod around. I know I need it to a certain extent, but the lighter the better.

Angela Nicholson: 25:56

So we spoke about your commercial work, your personal projects, the you know, the portraits that you shoot, and also your running workshops. How do you balance all of that on a day to day basis, and you're also quite active on social media?

Verity Milligan: 26:10

Yeah, it's tough. I'm neurodiverse. Though I find it quite hard to organise myself. Anyway, I'm still probably not as good as it as I should be. So I tend to pick and choose what I'm doing in any one moment. And I think it's probably better if I had set days for things, but I check the space and just muddle through and things seem to work out. But yeah, there's probably a better way of doing it. But it's the whole point of this for me. So academia was great, because it wasn't a nine to five. I mean, technically, you know, you have to be there to teach. But it had these peaks, and it had its troughs. And in the downtime, I had more time. And then the times when it was a really heavy semester, marking time, it was all hands on deck. And I worked so much better, if I'm not told I have to be here at this time. And I have to leave at this time. So having the freedom of being a freelancer and loves that, I love that, you know, I can take one morning to just edit of a couple of images, or maybe I have to do some admin or maybe I have to chase up some invoices, but every day is different. And that's really, really good for me.

Angela Nicholson: 27:26

Yes, I like a bit of variety as well. But I find it quite funny that you said that. You know you don't like to have to be at a certain place at certain time. Yet. You are a landscape photographer who likes to get out for sunrise in Misty conditions. So if the weather forecast is going to be great, and you know what time the sunrise is, you have to be there.

Verity Milligan: 27:44

Yeah, that's true. But that's exciting. Uh huh. Right, that's that's that's really like, you know, if there's fog forecast, I will jump out of bed like a bread out of a toaster. Like I'm out there doesn't even cross my mind to be tired. Or I'll probably awake before my alarm, just sort of tapping my fingers. Like why I'm gonna go I'm gonna go because the idea of getting somewhere and there is a rush, you know, there is a rush to, to seeing somewhere in conditions that you don't see very often. And to think, Oh, I get to capture this and I get to share it. And I think the sharing element is definitely part of that. Okay. But yeah, that's exciting. That's still after all these years excites me, for anyone starts don't necessarily, but you know, it's it's worth it is it all goes well, and then I can reward myself with a coffee at eight in the morning or something.

Angela Nicholson: 28:41

Yes, there is a certain reward there, isn't it when you're sat, having a piece of toast with a nice coffee 8am You've already done some great work and you're really happy with what you've seen and what you've captured. I can I can see that. I just wish I could do it more often.

Verity Milligan: 28:55

Yeah, and also, it's this this, you you'll probably understand what I'm talking about. The way being outside on a quiet morning when no one was in might be so don't go because around but it's it's really quiet and still. And you get to hear the dawn chorus. You get to watch the sunrise and it fills me up. We went to the Lake District, me and my other half on Friday night and we just decided at nine o'clock we're gonna jump in the van. We're gonna go to Lake District. And I got there when I got up at 5am for sunrise. And all of Friday. I was feeling really, really off and it's just we had to get back for Saturday night, but felt just really good. Like, like all of the troubles of the world had gone away. Because I got to wander around taking pictures of a heron at sunrise and I'm not a wildlife photographer, but it just didn't matter. It was just being there and then the stillness and the blue skies and what this means ring doing its thing and it just yeah, it fills me up and that feels like the real reward and the photography's just yeah, that's just a wonderful cherry on top to everything that comes with being outside.

Angela Nicholson: 30:14

Wonderful. I think that seems like the perfect point to go to Six from SheClicks. So I've got 10 Questions from SheClickers. And I'd like you to answer six of them, please by choosing numbers from one to 10. So, can I have your first number please?

Verity Milligan: 30:28

Okay, I'm gonna January baby. So number one.

Angela Nicholson: 30:32

Okay, this question is from Amy. Where is your favourite place in England to take photographs

Verity Milligan: 30:39

In England, okay. I'm gonna say Borrowdale. Nice. I think it's just a magnificent place. And I go back there again and again and again. So that end of Derwentwater than Manistee end is just one of my favourite places, whatever the season, so, and I've had so many amazing mornings of photography there and amazing afternoons watching. Showers move through and walking up. Yep, it's Craig and watching the sunset from there. And yeah, I would definitely say that, I think it was my gateway drug into landscape photography. And ever since it's been one of my favourite places in the entire world.

Angela Nicholson: 31:23

I can picture it perfectly, because one of the very earliest she clicks meetups was in Borrowdale. And I remember really smiling to myself because I looked up and I think there were maybe like, eight or 10 of us. And there was no two lenses pointing in the same direction. But you could see exactly why everybody was pointing their lens in that direction, because there was just fabulous scenery or amazing details in every direction.

Verity Milligan: 31:46

Ah, it's got so much going for a near right. It's a bit of a honeypot, in the sense that wherever you point your camera, there's something to take a photo of. And maybe that's what keeps me coming back again and again. And yeah, looking back towards Skiddaw. And yeah, really good.

Angela Nicholson: 32:05

Nice. Okay, so can I have your second number then please?

Verity Milligan: 32:10

Okay, number five.

Angela Nicholson: 32:14

I think you've probably already answered this. But let's just hammer the point home. What brings you joy? That's from Janet.

Verity Milligan: 32:20

Definitely just being outside and feeling alive. When, when like the first rays of the sun break through a misty morning, and you just feel that kind of whether it's winter or summer, that warmth on your face, or when you're wandering through jewellery grass, or when something just comes in front of the lens, whether it's a robin or a deer or a scenery that I hadn't spotted before. And carrying all of that with me through the rest of the day. Yeah, I think just being outside in nature brings me joy. And I think it always will.

Angela Nicholson: 33:04

It's nice at the end of the day, or whenever you download your images to be able to look and just sort of not yourself. Oh, yeah. That's what I saw.

Verity Milligan: 33:12

Yeah. And also, like the image that I'll pick that day, it I'll be so emotionally attached to that. It won't be the best image. So I'll go back six months later and be like, Oh, why don't I pick that one? Clearly better. So that's the side quest of that is always look back at your images. Yes. Good point. Okay, so your third number then please. Okay. Seven.

Angela Nicholson: 33:41

It feels like most people move from stills to branch out to video, but you moved from video to stills? How do you think influenced your journey in photography? That question is from Liz.

Verity Milligan: 33:52

Oh, that's a good question. I think it means that I'm more narrative driven. Because obviously, with video, you have to build a narrative. And I think, in the images that I'm trying to create stills wise, I'm trying to find a narrative and a single frame, which is probably why I'm so picky about what I shoot, and what I share, because I think videography taught me what quality was. And it taught me lysing especially. So just like photography, shooting video is all about light, and how you're using the light to tell the story. Photography is almost like condensing all of that knowledge down into this one single frame. And it's a skill that I'm still learning like how to put that across with all of the elements when you haven't got, you know, two minutes of footage. You've just got this, this one thing that will hopefully hold someone's attention for longer than a couple of seconds. And I think it's probably A lifelong learning curve. But yeah, I think I think it taught me that I think lighting especially and, and storytelling are probably the two main aspects that I brought with me into my stills photography.

Angela Nicholson: 35:14

Okay, good answer. Thank you. Can I have your fourth number? Please?

Verity Milligan: 35:19

Go for 10.

Angela Nicholson: 35:21

Number 10. This is from Helen, what is your favourite season?

Verity Milligan: 35:26

It's between autumn and winter? So, you know, is I can get away with saying it's that transition period.

Angela Nicholson: 35:34

Autumnal winter?

Verity Milligan: 35:38

Yeah, absolutely. We're just totally a season and making it and we've got five seasons now. That wonderful time, which is probably about kind of, what, October October 25.

Angela Nicholson: 35:50

Roughly!

Verity Milligan: 35:51

all the way to like November 25th.

Angela Nicholson: 35:54

Uh huh.

Verity Milligan: 35:55

Yeah, that that transition from autumn to winter is, is my favourite season where? Yeah, so if I had to pick a definitive season, it'd be awesome. But yeah, I think at the end of it for sure.

Angela Nicholson: 36:10

So what is it about the transitional phase that you particularly like, what aspects of autumn are still there in the winter is just appearing? What is it that really sucks you in?

Verity Milligan: 36:20

I just like transitional periods anyway, because you get that kind of, you get to spring as well. So when you when you're moving out of winter into spring, you get the days where it appears like winter, but you've got the spring colours, and it's almost the reverse of that. So it's the last gasp both of the season, but you tend to get more likelihood of a little bit of snow, especially on the tops, poor frost, which I'm a huge fan of any kind of frost with that autumn colour, and you get that sort of blending together. But also there's a little bit more opportunity for mist. So colder nights, little bit of warmth during the day. For a lot of people, I think they think autumn ended them but for me, that's where it really gets going.

Angela Nicholson: 37:30

Okay, so we've narrowed it down a bit now because it was from the 25th of October 25 of November, but it's now early November. We're getting there now. Right? Okay. Yeah,

Verity Milligan: 37:39

yeah. But um, you know.

Angela Nicholson: 37:43

Okay, so can I have your fifth number, please?

Verity Milligan: 37:47

Four.

Angela Nicholson: 37:48

Number four, right. Francesca says, she's a big fan of yours. And she wants to ask, Why do you think that they don't seem to be so many well known acclaimed female landscape photographers, she subscribes to a photography magazine, for example. And every issue, there's only a couple of women featured or only a couple of images taken by women, but there are many, many photographs in there.

Verity Milligan: 38:11

It's a really tricky one. Because there's a lot of talent out there. I do think there is a discrepancy between talent and representation. I think, and this is very much from personal experience. And it's and I certainly can't apply it to everybody. But I do think there is a confidence, imbalance as well. And I'm not saying that, that all male photographers are confident in their abilities and are, it's certainly not a catch all. But I think that as a gender, we might not be quite as forthcoming as we should be. And the experiences and conversations I've had, there's been a lot of, I don't think I could go out at that time to the morning on my own. And, and I totally get that, and then might just be, I don't know, just, there's a lack of representation across the board. I don't I don't necessarily think it's just a gender related thing. I think there's a lack of representation in terms of class as well. Photography is not an easy industry to get into. It's a very expensive hobby, nevermind career. And I think there just aren't a lot of opportunities. And I think that is shifting, especially with regard to gender. So I think that we are seeing a lot more really talented female photographers out there who are getting attention, and, and rightly so. But I do think there is a lot of work to be done with building up confidence as a cohort that you have the right to be in this space. And the more people the more editors who are female, the more people like you and what you've done when she clicks where again, it's about building as a up as a unit by saying, you know, we are here, we are allowed in this space, come out with us. This is a meet up here building competence that way allowing people to thrive, allowing people to find their see. And then I think before long it will be 5050 in terms of recognition and talent. Yeah, I think it's getting there. But without going on too much. I think the class thing probably has more of an impact over time. And I think the more opportunities for everybody the better.

Angela Nicholson: 40:36

Yes, the the financial side is definitely a dividing point. And one thing you didn't mention there, but I thought you might was more female judges for photographic competitions, you're actually one of the judges for the Landscape Photographer of the Year, aren't you? And you have been for quite some time.

Verity Milligan: 40:49

Yeah, I have. And you're right. And I think when I say, more women editors, I think what I mean is more women in those senior roles, whether it's magazine editor, whether it's judge, whether it's workshop leader, I don't, I've never felt uncomfortable outside on my own. But that's true. That just might be me, like I'm doing my brain might not have ever engaged in the sense where I, you know, occasionally I can feel a bit unsafe, but never out on the landscape on my own, I'd probably never feel safer than that when I'm in a sealed on my own at four in the morning. And I think I can see why that's, you know, for some people, that's really daunting. But you're I think more judges, and I think it's all about representation, but I think there's no simple answer to it either. Because I rack I've thought about it a lot. And I do think about it a lot of thinking that in the time I've been in this space, there has been a huge amount of change. And so the positive, and you've seen like, people YouTubing now, who a woman who was gaining the same kind of following the people like Nigel Dotson might have. So I think that's really important for representation as well. And that's why I think partly why I'm stepping into that space, because I want to encourage more women to get into that space as well. Because the more the merrier. And if we can lift up other people in this space and give them the platform and given the confidence, then I think that can only be a good thing for the entire industry.

Angela Nicholson: 42:25

Absolutely. Well said. Okay, so your final number then please. Nine. Right. Now, I think I know the answer for this one as well. But let's go for anyway. If you could only shoot at dawn or dusk, which would you choose? And why? That question is from Liz.

Verity Milligan: 42:45

I could be super controversial, be like, I'm gonna change and do dusk. No, it's definitely dawn. Definitely dawn. There's a real and I'll tell you why. Although, oddly, if it's a city, I'd probably say dusk, because, for me, blue hour in the city is where the city really comes alive. It's where the landscape kind of goes to sleep. But I love that a little bit of time between sunset and certified darkness. So civil twilight, where ambient light and artificial light balance out for me. And it's often gets longer during the summer. So I look forward to shooting that that time in the summer because it can go on for hours. But another it's just it took me a while to fall in love with that in the city because I was always about colour. And then I sort of did this one shoot and I realised Oh no, there's something here. But in the landscape. The way the light is in the mornings, different from dusk, it's eight because all the particles have settled down. And you've got a you've had the call of the night. It just has different quality. And I'm completely completely in love with it. So I think for me, if someone said it could only be dawn or duskc, like probably accept that it will be dawn forevermore. And, you know, give up on the idea of sleep.

Angela Nicholson: 44:09

It's a compelling argument.

Verity Milligan: 44:10

Yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 44:12

I just really struggle to get up at that time of day. So dusk is always easier. And if you're at the coast, and the tide just times itself, right so it's actually going out so you've got nice clean sand at dusk, fantastic if you look at the tide times and everything Oh no, it was the wrong way round.

Verity Milligan: 44:31

Yeah, I like the especially the islands I think about Harris and Lewis that you did anytime a day there is great, especially if you get the weather moving through. So it doesn't doesn't always have to be an early start. But yeah, it's good. Yeah, I'm a prolific napper I could nap anywhere. And I think that's the only reason I've been able to get through so far as a human.

Angela Nicholson: 44:58

Okay, oh, well, that's where we differ I'm not a great napper. But I understand now the secret power. So, Verity, thank you so much for joining me today on the SheClicks podcast. It's been wonderful hearing from you.

Verity Milligan: 45:11

Thank you for inviting me on it's been really nice to talk, and hopefully somebody will get something out of it.

Angela Nicholson: 45:16

I'm sure they will. Thanks very much. Bye bye.

Verity Milligan: 45:19

Take care.

Angela Nicholson: 45:21

Thanks for listening to this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. You'll find links to Veritie's website and social media channels in the show notes. I'll be back with another episode soon. So please subscribe to the show on your favourite podcast platform and tell all your friends and followers about it. You'll also find she clicks on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube if you search for SheClicks net. So until next time, enjoy your photography.