Margot Raggett: 0:04

Gear does make a difference, and if there's certain parameters of what you want to achieve, you have to think about having the gear that will allow you to do that. But the third ingredient to all of it is being there when the magic happens.

Angela Nicholson: 0:19

Welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson, and I'm the founder of SheClicks which is a community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I talk with women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them, and how they got to where they are now. Our guest today is Margot Raggett, a wildlife photographer and the founder of the Remembering Wildlife book series. These books bring together the work of the best wildlife photographers in the world, and have raised more than a million pounds for conservation projects. In 2023, Margot received an MBE for her services to international wildlife conservation. And in March this year, she won the SheClicks Outstanding Achievement Award 2024. Hi, Margot, thanks so much for joining me on the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast.

Margot Raggett: 1:04

Thank you. I'm really happy to be here.

Angela Nicholson: 1:07

Thank you. Congratulations, once again on winning the SheClicks Outstanding Achievement Award for 2024. For those who aren't familiar with the process of deciding the winner, just to fill you in, we have a SheClicks judging panel of about 40 SheClickers They put together, well, it's not a shortlist, it's quite a long list, actually. And over several weeks, we talk about who we want to include and the various merits of everybody and then we come up with a shortlist of 10. And then that list of 10 goes out to the whole SheClicks community for voting. And Margot was the clear winner for 2024. So congratulations, Margot.

Margot Raggett: 1:44

Thank you. I mean, it was a total surprise. And I have no idea that any of the steps that you just described to have gone through, so when I heard about it, yes, I was, I was really touched. So thank you to everyone who voted for me. I appreciate it.

Angela Nicholson: 1:58

Thank you. Well, I think it's a mark of the respect and appreciation of what you're doing, particularly with the Remembering Wildlife series. But I think we should start off with how you got started in photography. Now, I know that you bought your first DSLR in 2010. And that was when you were going to a safari in the Maasai Mara, but was that your first dabbling with photography? Was that your first safari? What was the start?

Margot Raggett: 2:25

No. Well, no and no, is the answer to that. It actually starts from my childhood. My grandfather was a photographer, he works with the Royal Navy, and he was actually like a technical photographer doing pictures of things to do with Navy ships. But he also I've discovered later on had his own photographic studio when he was quite young. And I've only found that out now, which is a it's a real shame because I would love to talk to him about it, but he's no longer with us. But I grew up seeing slideshows from him, he used to have a room that was as opposed to a dark room, a room that was dark that we could go in and look at slideshows, so I was always kind of inspired by his photography, and he gave me my very first camera, which was a little Pentax, which I played with as a teenager. And then in my former career in PR, I would commission photography and not for corporate brochures, magazines and things. So I would often go on the road with photographers and I would be choosing images, they would send over 20s as we call them great huge sheets of transparencies from photo shoots and I would be the one that had to select the image that we would use in a magazine so I had an eye for photography and picking pictures from a big choice of images before I actually started taking properly pictures for myself but I fallen in love with Safari in the early 2000s Didn't take a camera or took a very basic camera and now I look back on my pictures the animals are in a bush with their eyes shot but I didn't really notice I was just excited I'd seen a lion or something. So my poor family had to look at very bad images in those days. But as you said, I then signed up I was very busy at work but I signed up for a safari to the Masai Mara. And it was led by TVs Jonathan Scott to I'd heard off from Big Cat Diary. So I thought that sounds like it should be interesting. And the night before I read it said Don't forget to bring your camera and your camera book so that we can help you with your photography and I thought what camera I have. So I went to Jessops and I bought a nick on because honestly I thought it sounded cooler than the Canon. And it was just the cheapest kit camera, which was about 500 pounds or something in 2010 as well what am I you know, what am I do with this? And actually, it was a terrible choice of camera for Safari, the lens length was 17 to 55. And obviously you need a really good reach of a lens to take wildlife pictures. Someone lent me a two times converter because they felt sorry for me but that meant it wasn't really good. impactful. So all the shots were soft, but I just got totally inspired by Jonathan and Angela Scott. And every night, they gave a presentation on how to take great wildlife pictures, from landscapes through to close ups. And I just looked at what the images they were taking and thought I want to take pictures like that. And so that changed my life that trip and seeing the images that they took and what was possible, and I determined that I was going to get better. So I came back to England and I upgraded my camera gear, I managed to do a part exchange. And I went to a week long course at the London School of photography to learn the basics of how to shoot on manual, which was incredibly helpful just to go straight back to basics and learn all about the different settings on the camera, etc. And, and I've never really looked back since then.

Angela Nicholson: 5:53

Amazing. Yeah, I think investing a bit of time in learning really pays dividends. I mean, these days, you can learn a heck of a lot to the internet, through webinars and through YouTube. But actually going on a physical course is always really good too, isn't it?

Margot Raggett: 6:07

Yeah, I mean, it was, we were sent away with lots of homework, which I'm sure there are courses online, which would do the say that can't remember, we had one half day where we were told off we have tasks to do, there's one that I always remember, which was you had to take a picture of a traffic light, where you had both the red, the amber and the green lit up. So you had to work out how to do that. And so obviously, I think is about plenty 25 seconds between the sequence. So you had to work out that you needed to have your shutter open for 25 seconds and then not blow out your picture. So then had to work out how to achieve that by adjusting everything has to be done manually, your aperture and your ISO as well. So it really got you to think about the basics. And then those which yeah, I've done have done me, you know really well in the future of everything I've done because I really thought about the basics about what a camera is doing and what I am doing with light when I'm adjusting each of the settings on the camera.

Angela Nicholson: 7:04

Yeah, that is quite a technical challenge. I mean, I guess not the most inspiring picture at the end of it. But rewarding nonetheless, because of the technical challenge.

Margot Raggett: 7:12

Exactly. And if you haven't thought about it before, then you know, you're kind of learning a lot in the basics of how to use a camera what you're trying to achieve. And obviously, I do remember Jonathan Scott also saying to me in the early days, your use of the camera should become as instinctual as driving a car. So if you're driving, you can change gear, look in the rearview mirror, you know, kind of steer and also chat to the person next to you without thinking about it. And you do need to get to the point where you can use your camera in that way. So you're thinking this is what I want to achieve and your fingers and thumbs are, you know, moving all the settings to get you where you want to be. And it's only when you can get to that stage that you're then able to react quickly to situations and really concentrate on what you're trying to do rather than thinking about what am I doing with this camera. So that was something that really stuck with me and something I strive to achieve as quickly as I could.

Angela Nicholson: 8:08

Yeah, I think that's a great analogy, actually, err, controlling a car compared to controlling a camera. So you started in 2010 and then in 2015 you won a category in the Nature's Best Photography Awards. Was that the first time you'd entered a prestigious competition?

Margot Raggett: 8:24

I think I'd had to go aat entering Wildlife Photographer of the Year a couple of years before and I had got to the final stage where they call the raws in, but I hadn't kind of progressed any further than that. I've entered a few other I've entered a camp in Kenya they were running a photographic competition and I want to binoculars and things like that. So I mean there are lots of competitions out there but really that time between 2010 and 2015 was about building my portfolio because I, I then, I'm quite analytical in how I approach things and I'd kind of looked at what I thought made great images and the people that were winning awards and and thought okay not only have you got to be very technically competent and obviously I was working on that side of things as I described. Your gear does make a difference in a particularly you know technology is coming on so quickly now and things are getting better and better every year. But you know having for example I have a prime 400mm Nikon lens I'm I've just upgraded to a mirrorless actually, but for a long time I was using my babies I call that the 400 f/2.8. But before that I had a 200-400 and although that gave me great flexibility at 400 mil something in the distance was soft, and I'd sat in a vehicle next to someone who had a prime 400, and we were both at that length and their shot came out super crisp, but mine was soft, and I was enormously frustrated by that. So again and I remember another day in the early years looking at someone we had the light was dropping and there was a young leopard who has become my favourite leopard. She's still alive. She's called Bahati, the Masai Mara, she was really little then and we were together in a vehicle and she, the light was dropping, it was the end of the day, and she was drinking the little pebble. And I can still picture the scene looking at her and she was laughing away and kind of looking at with big eyes with us. And her beautiful eyes, and my camera wouldn't take the shot, because I didn't have the ISO capability to actually go up and ask for my ISO at that point to get enough light in because it was so dark, whereas the person next to me did so I did that I did a lot of looking at other people to help you get that high can't get that. And so I realised that gear does make a difference. And there's certain parameters of what you want to achieve, you have to think about having the gear that will allow you to do that. But the third ingredient to all of it is being there when the magic happens as I put it, and you can go for a week to the Maasai Mara, and all you see is animals who are in the bush on the wrong side, or the light is not there, or there is a lot of luck. But it also comes from putting the time in Now we all know the very lucky person who just turns up and, you know, leopard happens to do something spectacular at that particular moment. But for most of us, you can spend weeks and weeks and weeks, you know and never see a leopard in that particular tree and then the one day you're away, that's when it goes up in that tree. So I decided I needed to find a way to spend more time out there so that I had more of a chance of being there when the magic happened. And that's when I after a couple of years as building my portfolio and going out there a lot. I managed to kind of negotiate a deal, I offered my skills to a camp and the boss Omar and I said look in my background is marketing. So let me help you build your social media at that point, they didn't even have a presence. Let me give you content, fuel, social media, let me teach your guests what I know and spend time in camp. And in return, let me be in your camp for months on end, which I you know, like$1,000 a night normally for a camp, there's no way anyone can afford to do that. But I thought if I can actually, you know, barter my skills, and then I can spend good chunks of time. So I spent three to four months a year there from 2012 through to 2015 doing that. And that did allow me the luxury of a loss of time to see and lots of magical things. And so the image that I won the category for, which was animal antics for nature's best, it was a lion cubs squeezing through its mom's legs and trying to get her attention. And she was kind of clamping it with her feet. She was paying serious attention trying to look for something she could go off and hunt for dinner for all of them. And this cub was, you know, trying to get her attention. And it was just one of those fleeting moments. And I don't normally have my finger pressed down on the shutter firing or 1000s of images because there's just a lot of work in going through them afterwards and processing and everything. So but that particular moment, I could see it kind of unfolding in slow motion as it's come started coming through. I was thinking crabbing, keep coming, and it did. And so I just fired away and probably last week, all of 10 seconds. But even the sequence from that is such fun because it's kind of wiggling around and looking up and down. And there was a particular moment where it had its tongue sticking out and its face all squished up looking comical. Oh, lovely. Yeah, that that was the one I knew. And that's the only image that I've had that's gone truly viral. That's had right hundreds of 1000s of likes. Just one of those that captures everyone. But it was lucky. But it wasn't, you know, I done everything else I just described to you. I made sure I had the right gear, I knew how to use the camera, you know, and I put lots and lots of time in. So that's how I got that picture. It wasn't lucky.

Angela Nicholson: 13:43

You mentioned putting the time in. But there's I think there's a different element as well that comes with it. Because like you said, the first shots that you showed your family of you know, a lion in in the bush weren't great. They had the eyes shut, that kind of thing. But it was your first time seeing a lion. So you want that kind of record shot. I've seen it. And then with a bit more exposure, you start to think right now I want to do something a bit more interesting, a bit more creative. But do you still allow yourself that if you come across a new species, wild species you haven't seen before? Do you still allow yourself a record shot and then kind of move on to trying to get something creative? Or have you got that discipline that you think no, no, I've got to get something special from the outset.

Margot Raggett: 14:24

And no, I do but I wouldn't show the record shot. So a sloth bear in India is a good example. I had produced the remembering bears book two years ago but had never actually seen the bear to loosen up in the wild myself to photograph one. So when I was in India last year in Rankin Bora snots bear ran through the forest, but it was very dark and it was behind a lot of shrubbery, but I'd never seen one so I took a few pictures just so that I could look and kind of have a proper examine of what it looked like to me but but I never showed those pictures to anyone. So there's a difference between me grabbing something for my own satisfaction that I've grabbed it. And then what I would now publicly show, and again, there is this skill of self selection and self editing is quite an important one. And sometimes you see people that go on a trip, and they give you, they share like 30 variations on the same sighting. So it's like, and then it went up a tree, and they came down the tree, and then he looked left, and then he looked right. And I never do that. And if you look at a lot of the top photographers, they'll have one image, I get two or three out of one sighting that's really good going. Normally, I would have like a whole afternoon. But something one image from that self selection and having a critical eye on your own work is really important.

Angela Nicholson: 15:44

I think sometimes there's a perception that the top wildlife photographers only shoot that, you know, one or two images, and it's not that they will shoot several because as you say, the animal might go up the tree and then down the tree, but you never actually know where it's going to disappear. So you will shoot several images. But like you say it's the selection process where you only show the key ones, the winners.

Margot Raggett: 16:05

Yeah. And honestly, they'll shoot more than several going back in the days when I used to permission photographers who I was paying for corporate work through just sitting in Safari vehicles with many, many top wildlife photographers who are friends, you know that there are some, for example, there's a great tool for called Richard Peters, he's become a very good friend of mine. And I've I've travelled with him a bit. And he he prides himself on the fact that he doesn't take that many pictures, but he's still taking more than several Emmys on a shoot like that. Because you don't if it's moving that quickly the animal, you know that there can just be the moment that if you just literally, this is with digital Now obviously, if you literally only allowed yourself that second press that one thing you could, you could just be blinking slightly odd looking slurry eyes. So you need to take more pictures than that. But you don't necessarily then keep them you might only then download three or four that you want to select between, but you can take more. But that to me is also just really shows how technology has come on. Because going back to Jonathan Scott, so he and his wife Angie, and I particularly love Angie's work she she's such a beautiful photographer, and they both individually one wildlife photographer of the year, but he won it back in the 80s I think it was with a picture of wild dogs biting down on I think it's a buffalo. But when he shot those images, which had never really been recorded, even shooting on film, he was manually winding forward a film camera, he was having to adjust all the settings on the top by kind of looking over and making them he had a split second to get those images. And then he didn't know for two months, whether he'd got them until he got back into town and could have been processed. So you know, if he nailed that picture, you know that that skill now, you know, we can all just sit there and press the shutter get 1000 pictures. So I've gone back and bought early copies of wildlife photographer of the year. And if you a lot of the images that were awarded, then I wouldn't select Trini the remembering books now because we've come on so far in terms of what we expect and the quality that we can attain nowadays. So in a way, it's so much easier for us, I do think there's some less scale, there would be quite an interesting exercise to tell everyone go out, just shoot on film and not know what you've got, and then see what people actually achieve as opposed to what we do now. I don't think anyone would take up that offer. But yeah, it's interesting.

Angela Nicholson: 18:31

It's quite challenging.

Margot Raggett: 18:32

Yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 18:33

Yes. Especially in you know, once in a lifetime moments.

Margot Raggett: 18:37

Yes, exactly. Which you never know when they're going to happen either. So yeah, you can spend a lot of time and that is a thing as well, that's, that is interesting is I do try and think always about what's going to make an image different because as you say, you move on to the animal sitting in the bush. So then you might have an animal and leopard in a tree and you think, oh my god, this is amazing. I've got a facial sharp, I left it in the tree. But when you spend months and months in the field, as I did, you know and the look at like, when we ran the competition for remembering methods, I saw 1000s of pictures and people are rightly proud that they've nailed a really nice portrait of a leopard in a tree. But it's not that different to anyone elses method in a tree shot. You know, it's actually you know, got to be there's one picture that we've got in the book, which is a competition winner and there's a leopard jumping between two trees and it's perfectly symmetrical. It's halfway between the two. So when I'm judging, I looked at that and thought God you know, I haven't seen that I haven't nailed that for myself, you know, that's not a shot you see very often so there's this stage of evolution again of our photography where you can kind of you can go from not taking very good pictures to name perfectly lovely pictures that would look great on your wall. But you need to still recognise but that's nothing particularly unusual or the there hasn't been seen before. So then how do you take it It further not sharpened. And you start to think about I always talk about, there's a stage that you go into where you're making rather than taking pictures. So rather than just being presented with a leopard in the G and you take the picture, you start to think, Well, what do I want here? Do I want a really wide angle with lots of the sky? Because the sky is Stormy? Do I need to ask the driver to reposition the vehicle? Do I think if I went around that side, the light would be better than sitting here where I've been parked? And so starting to think about how to actually achieve, say, making the image rather than just taking what's in front of you. And again, that's a whole journey that all of us go on with our photography, I think.

Angela Nicholson: 20:38

Yes. Now, you mentioned that you've switched to mirrorless photography. Now, do you think that brings any advantages to a wildlife photographer, or in your case, have you merely worn out your DSLR and needed to get a new Now, it's interesting, I find that you camera?

Margot Raggett: 20:50

I hadn't worn it out but there are a number of advantages that I really appreciate with it, we're just it's always kind of, you know, incremental steps going forward. One thing, just the fact it's totally silent is a massive benefit as a wildlife photographer, because I hate kind of venue noise when I'm with animals and taking pictures. So I love the fact that I can see actually, the image as I took it, what you couldn't do before, because it didn't have all the adjustments in that you'd put. So I've got a Z9 now, a Nikon Z9 and the eye tracking on that is insanely good. So again, shots that you can let the camera take over. So I've got pictures of kingfishers kind of throwing fish in the air and then catching them and trying to swallow them and then shaking it out and got all of the droplets in fine detail. And everything is pin sharp. Whereas before, if I was manually focusing and trying to follow the eye of the Kingfisher with know, the preview that you get in the EVF of a mirrorless my thumb and take the pictures, I'd get some that I wouldn't just, you know, kind of afterwards, look back and have every picture nailed it again, in a way I kind of said, I mean, it's helpful. But I also feel it's slightly cheating because it's, it's doing the job for us. But then again, you have to think well, okay, if the camera can now achieve that view, then camera is just such an advantage. And when you switch what else can I do that the camera can't? What can I do to make the picture more interesting. So it allows your brain to free up to think even more in different ways? Yeah, I definitely have appreciated that the step change, and it's very hard. My second body is a(Niokon) D850. So I'm still going back to pre-mirrorless. And it's really hard when I go back to that sometimes just because it's a step change. So yeah, at some point, if I can find any way to fund myself a second body, which is a mirrorless, I probably should. But like all of us, there's a never ending list of things that we'd like to have. And I'll kick back though. Yes. And now that's how I'm shooting. back to a DSLR, you have to remind yourself to look at the exposure scale, rather than the image you're seeing in the viewfinder exactly, by you saying you know that the eye tracking is so useful. And I can see why you might say it feels like cheating. But like you say, it means you can concentrate on the composition, and just a maybe think about the exposure in a more creative way. So it does open up opportunities as well. Yeah, no, true. True. There's I say I do think that digital's also cheating compared to the film days, and the shots that Jonathan Scott put on film, so it's a it's all. I don't want to go backwards. I just acknowledge it's easier.

Angela Nicholson: 23:34

Yes, yes, I think that's true. I don't want to go backwards either. Now, although you are a very accomplished photographer, you are probably best known for the Remembering Wildlife charity book series that you started in 2015. And the ninth Kickstarter campaign for Remembering Tigers is just coming to an end. But you've smashed the target, which is great news. But could you tell us what inspired you to start the series in the first place?

Margot Raggett: 23:57

Sure. And I told you briefly that I worked in, in marketing for 20 years before I moved into wildlife, wildlife geography, and one of the reasons I left what I was doing before is because I was doing marketing for big corporate companies like Unilever and Coca Cola and, and Boots The Chemist, and a, you know, had had become any accomplished at that. But I always had an underlying sense of lack of purpose. I didn't really feel like I was achieving much or giving much back to the world. So I used to say I was cash rich and time poor. And then I went the other way, and I was, you know, kind of had the luxury of spending all this time with wildlife. Not very much cash. But after a while, that was great. But then again, I started feeling dissatisfied that I wasn't really giving back and I also felt like you know, I was deriving all this enjoyment from watching the animals and taking pictures and winning some awards with pictures, but I wasn't giving anything back to them at all. So that was all kind of swirling around in I had and then at the end of 2014, I had gone up to the copier after one of my stays in the Masai Mara to visit a friend who was up there and the camp we were staying in the KP a wilderness camp, we were woken up at four in the morning by the sound of lots and lots of hyenas going absolutely crazy for something. And so at first like we went to investigate, and it's private land where they are. So you get out on cert, unlike in the national reserves, like Banaras. So the guide kind of led us into some undergrowth to try and dig in and see what was happening. And we found a poached elephant. And he was very young. He was about 14 or 15. He had short little tasks because he wasn't very old and hadn't grown out that far. The hyenas had started to eat him. And I was saying, Well, you know what, what is happening here that this doesn't happen, you know, young elephants don't just die, something's happened. And they explained to me the poaching crisis at that point was particularly then was absolutely tipping point it was, I think it was something like every 93 minutes, they thought an elephant was being poached for its ivory. And in this instance, the poachers, they said, What probably happened is that they shot him with the poisoned arrow he had bolted from them. So he managed to get away from the poachers. And then it would have taken four or five days of the poison to get through his bloodstream. And he would have died a very painful, lonely death. And I was devastated. I was so angry. I just saw, I can't I can't handwriting this. I just felt impotent with Ray. And I had a kind of epiphany. I realised that so many people, including me, were going on lovely safaris to luxury lodges in Africa and had a really almost a Disney view of what the African bush was like. And you see the elephant's wander past at sunset and you change your gin and tonic and, you know, celebrate yourself for being a wonderful photographer and having you had a good day. And you've no idea that round the corner beyond the hill in the valley. And into being poached, as I've now gone on to learn in no uncertain detail. You know, they're getting caught in snares. They're being killed in retaliation for crop breeding, versus essence. And, and honestly, I felt like it was something that had been hidden from me not deliberately, but something you know, the logic don't tell you any of the bad stuff. They don't want to break your bubble. And I felt like I can't, I can't stay silent. Now I know that so I thought what can I do about this so that I can make a fast I could just put a post on social media saying isn't this awful, but I thought no, I need to do more than that. And I realised I knew quite a few wildlife photographers at that point. Because having spent so much time in the field, you would see the same faces and we'd all started chatting and I you know, kind of swapped messages with them and waved to them at sightings. And so I started contacting photographers I knew like Richard Peters, and Angela Scott have become very good mentors to me, Federico Veronesi, you ended up with a cover image for Remembering Elephants with someone I've seen a lot in the Masai Mara. And I remember going and having breakfast with him at the main crossing point of the Mara, we'd arranged to meet after morning Safari, and saying, I've got this idea. And I'm thinking I could make a book on elephants. And I know if I just did it with my images, I'm not particularly well known. And no one will buy a car from my mum. But if I got an image, say from Jonathan and Angela, and from you and from Richard and from, you know, other people that we mutually knew, people might buy it, because no one had done that, at that point. The photographer's had never worked together in that way on a on a charity initiative. And that way, I should say, let's do that. And then we'll sell the book to try and raise awareness of the fact that this poaching is happening. But then also we can make some money off of sending it we'll give it back to anti-poaching. And so, and again, I was really naive at that point, I just thought, you know, we'll raise money to give guns to rangers and they could shoot the poachers. And then that's it, we'll save elephants and job done them. But, you know, I was starting on a very long and and eye opening journey that now been on for nine years. So I said to Federico, this is my idea, you know, would you give me an image? I wasn't sure if he worked? And he said, Of course I would. And then everyone I contacted said, Of course I would. And then I thought, well, I want definitely that sounds like a really nice number of photographers. And I didn't know, I probably knew about 20. So then I started Googling elephant images and finding pictures I liked on the internet and working out who the photographer was and contacting them and saying you don't know me, but and because I had the backing of people like Jonathan and Angela and I said bear in the book, other people then said, Okay, well if they're doing it, I'll do it. And so I managed to get between that and some of them recommending other people and introducing them to friends and saying, you know, you should trust this woman. She's got a great idea and we managed to pull the 50 together, and I teamed up with Born Free and because they had been using buy images for their marketing for a while, they'd contacted me a few years before and said, We love your pictures. Can we use them? And I said, Yes. So I said, Look, I've got this idea. And I think I can possibly raise some money. But although I know how to do that, I don't know at that stage, I didn't know how to spend it on conservation and not have it wasted. Because I was aware there was a lot of corruption in Africa, and you could raise money and send it off and not go to the right cause. So will you team up with me? And they said, Yes. So then I spent a year working on that first book, we set out to do a Kickstarter campaign like this one. And I, the amount I set out to raise is the same amount I always set as a target this year, which nowadays is actually just a bit of a kind of nominal, you know, kind of amount, which is 20,000. But in that year, that first year, I worked out 20,000 pounds would pay for 1000 books. And I didn't know if we would actually raise it, I figured I would set out to raise the 20,000 Kickstarter is all or nothing. So if you don't get it in the 30 days, that all the time limit you set yourself, then you get nothing. So I figured I'll try and raise the 20,000. And if we, if we hit it will make the book and if not, I haven't lost anything at this point apart from my time, you know, countless emails, begging people to give me pictures and things. So we'll give it a go. And we hit it that first day in 12 hours. I remember the evening as it rolled on, and you get an alert on your phone. Every time someone backs us, it will say Angela just bought a book for 45 pounds, you can see you know what's happening, and it was ticking towards the 20,000 When I was I ended up going and getting a glass of wine and you're sitting and kind of watching it as it rolled up until it hit 20,000. And I had a little cry and thought, oh my god, you know, we're actually going ahead with this. And that first book ended up going on to raise 58,000 pounds, which is effectively just cash flow for us to make the book. But as a slight aside, because this is a female photographers group, I will say I don't talk about this that often. But on the day, the Kickstarter ended it 30 days in so this would be September 2015. It was actually September the 23rd 2015. Because it's forever burned in my mind. We ended at nine that morning. But I knew I was going to the hospital that afternoon because I'd found that lump in my breast. And at nine o'clock that night, I was told I had breast cancer. At that point I was kind of in disarray, not knowing what that meant to me. And as anyone who's gone through that will know that first diagnosis, you don't know how far it's spread, potentially what type you've got anything, you don't know what the prognosis is. But I decided I would push on regardless through treatment to make the book because it actually gave me something to focus on that was positive. And that sense of purpose. I said I'd been lacking for all of my life before then it became so focal to me, it was like I've got to get through this treatment, I've got to be okay, because I'm making this book and all these people have backed me and I'm going to do it regardless, you know, I will make this happen. And I was really lucky. I had caught it very early, I didn't have to have chemotherapy, I had surgery and radiotherapy. And my treatment was done within three months. But elephants became a very kind of guiding light. For me at that point, I felt like they were helping me because I was helping them and vice versa. So I've become quite superstitious about elephant karma. And what they mean to me didn't say, but does a very long answer to to start, why we started how we started. And when the book ventually came out in 2016. It sold out in two months. And people started saying to me, what's next? And I thought what do you mean? I've just done a year and a half making this book. And that was everything I wanted to do. And we raised 100,000 pounds to give out viable three. But yet everyone started saying what's next. And I realised that potentially there were more books to be made.

Angela Nicholson: 33:59

What a fantastic story. And such a a mixture of emotions from horrible lows, to highs and faith in humanity and then being dashed again. And then you know, getting through it all and progressing. So congratulations on all you've achieved with the the book series have been huge amount of money raised, and some great deeds done, I'm sure by all the people who've had money that can help save wildlife.

Margot Raggett: 34:26

Thank you. Yeah, and I think what I've managed to do is I've managed to create a focus point there are lots of people who want to give back in some way and whether it is photographers that we've worked with. I was just dropping an email before we started this recording with a jeweller who I'd actually met on the trip with Jonathan and Angela Scott. So he he's retired now but he still does stuff for us every year. He makes handmade unique pieces based on photographs. And he was like, Well, you know, I can make jewellery I can make silver elephants for you if you like as necklaces. So you could sell and I, my finance director is actually my previous finance director from my PR days who for a very nominal fee does all my VAT returns. So I don't have to, and all the annual reports and things and just so many people who want to do something, because they equally are frustrated at the state of conservation, but don't know how can just offer their skills, you know, from volunteers at our events and things and, and it's, it's really moving, it's really touched me how many people throw themselves into supporting this idea. And you know, and our successes, you know, on the built on the shoulders of all of them, you know, I'm just the one that had the idea. But you know, I couldn't have got it to where it was without everyone else's backing and support. So, yeah, it means a lot to me.

Angela Nicholson: 35:47

Yeah, I can understand exactly what you mean. And a sense of purpose, I think is a very powerful thing. And to be able to give other people a sense of purpose as well is really invigorating, isn't it? Because suddenly, you've got lots more people pulling together, and they've all got different skills and producing something, which is actually very important.

Margot Raggett: 36:06

Yeah, no, it's just wonderful. And I get taken aback by it. Quite often, that you know, and then every year when I switch to a new Kickstarter on I, genuinely, my friends will tell you this, you know, kind of terrified that no one will be there. And be like, No, I've got too many of your books. Now. We're not interested anymore. And thankfully, Touchwood so far, it they keep coming back to support us again, which is amazing. But I'm very, very moved. But equally, I think it's because, you know, so there are we all care about? Well, not all of us, but everyone who supports us, you know, is deeply moved to want to try and preserve wildlife. And there are so many things working against, you know, that the wild and nature generally, and all of them are caused by man in some way, shape, or form all of that. And that is so shameful that, you know, it's, it's nice to find a way that people can actually positively try and make a difference to that.

Angela Nicholson: 37:05

Yeah. When did you introduce the competition for people to have an image in the book?

Margot Raggett: 37:11

From the first year, so because what I figured out was, so we had the competition for elephants as well. And what we figured out was that at that point, I didn't know 50 photographers, and I said, I was Googling images and finding images. Like there's one in there. If you look back on Remembering Elephants by Peter Delaney, which is an elephant that's dust bathing in very white kind of chalky soil, I think it was taken an entire show. It's a stunning image. And I just, you know, I thought I want that in the book. It's gorgeous, and kind of hunted him down. But I realised that were probably lots of stunning images that I just hadn't seen of photographers, I didn't know you'd have great pictures. And you didn't necessarily need to be a national geographically recognised photographer, or have hundreds of 1000 followers to take a great shot, you know, or lucky shelter or whatever. And I thought, we just need to find as many options as we possibly can to make the best book that we can and then the objective of the book. So said, we call that remembering after a couple of things happened, I saw an interview with Jane Goodall, who was on BBC Breakfast, and I kind of turned on the TV at breakfast time, one morning, and she was talking about how the rate of poaching was such that 30 to 40,000 Elephants a year were being poached for their ivory at that point. And with only around 400,000 Elephants left, if you do the maths, and within 10 to 20 years, you know, potentially they could not be here anymore. And that was overly simplistic, as I've learned now, and elephants obviously being born and other factors, or many other factors play into that. But still the idea that they could go extinct in our lifetime shocked me. And then I saw a quote from Sir David Attenborough, and it said, which he lets us use in the book and he said, the question is, are we happy to suppose that our grandchildren will only ever see elephants in picture but those two thoughts shocked me so much, I thought, Well, if that did come to pass, then what would have made here is a book that is a tribute to what they had been like in the wild at this moment by the best photographers and the best images I could get. So it's a memorial and so therefore remembering elephants, let's call it that. And let's provoke people into getting out of their stupor and realising if we don't do something now then we might only remember them in picture books. So I just wanted my ambition was to make the most beautiful book on elephants that was ever seen. And I figured I had a good chance of doing that because, as I said, until that point, the all the photographers had never got together. So you might have a picture by one or two great photographers, and they might ask one or two friends to contribute, but it was largely their work. And so again, you're looking at kind of their whole portfolio, as opposed to their very best image for their portfolio, and then someone else's very best image and someone else's very best image. And if you put all those together for these books, it was going to be great. So, so yeah, the competition was another way of just making sure that there was some fairness and that anyone who wanted their images to be reviewed and seen for the book stood a chance and had a way of doing that, because we realised that there will be some people upset because they hadn't been asked to submit. And so you know, that no one could say hadn't had a chance to have their images reviewed.

Angela Nicholson: 40:36

Right. Because of your experiences, elephants made the logical subject for the very first book, but how do you choose subjects going forward? Do you think it's more important to cover the, you know, the most popular subjects that are likely to garner the most money? Or do you think it's more important to cover those which are the most threatened species?

Margot Raggett: 40:57

It's kind of a mixture of both, but probably in reality up until now? Well, no, I was gonna say the most popular, but that's not true. I try and vary it a bit. So for example, African wild dogs, we did the book on then, I did some research in the UK. And my hunch was proven true in that the research came back. And more than 50% of people in the UK were surveyed, said, the hyena when they saw a picture of an African Wild Dog, because they didn't know what it was, they haven't heard of it. And there's a lot of antipathy towards wild dogs genuinely, and people don't like the way they hunt and behave. So I kind of felt fronted on their behalf that, you know, they deserve a book and they are beautiful. And if you actually spend any time with them, you know, how they behave, and their social dynamics are fascinating. So I will tend to try and ride a good year, and then maybe I'll slip into a species that's not so popular and think that hopefully, we've got the momentum to carry us through that. But equally, I do need to sell books, because that's how we raise money. And if they, although we have a very loyal following, and there's a good number of people who will buy a book, no matter what I make it on. There are other people just in the general public who come across us and you know, see our books on Amazon and have a hunt through and think, Oh, yes, I like cheaters. But you know, ruler, they're like, African wild dogs, or whatever it happens to be. So I need to sell books as well. So having animals that are charismatic, as we call them, you know, on the cover and featured, because then the donations that we give again, this is part of my journey, that that first year I was like, well raise money to stop elephant poaching. And you know that that's what we're going to do. And I hadn't appreciated that. For example, one of our first funds donations that came out for remembering elephants went to Mary National Park in Kenya. And we were paying to put tires back on to Land Cruisers for the Rangers that had worn out. So they had 10 vehicles off the road because they didn't have tires. So they couldn't get to the depths of the park to confront poachers because they couldn't get there. So we paid for tires for 10 vehicles that would last six months, we paid for fuel that would last six months. We even paid to fix a 30 year old grading machine which made the roads passable again. So the roads get very kind of rigid in the wet season in the greater part of cuts off the top, a major snooze eaten pass. And when I was out there straight after elephants came out and we were visiting and there was an incident we again kind of woke up in the morning and came into camp for coffee and everyone was hushed and talking and we said what's going on and they said there was gunshots fired in the park last night and we don't know if anything was poached. And it turned out that poachers had gone into the park. But because of the tires that we paid for the grading and the fuel, we did actually have ranges in the area. So they heard the gunshots. They retired with gun sorry, responded with gunshots into the air. So the poachers knew that they were near. So the poachers left and in the morning they were able to confirm that there were no carcasses found. They did find empty shells, but they didn't find any carcasses. So poaching incident had been averted. But in that particular area, they were actually rhinos, not elephants. So even though I was there saying we must protect anything, I realised we're actually protecting everything. And we're protecting the ecosystem. And so again, even though it might be a charismatic species that's on the cover of I was just writing something yesterday about the fact that money from remembering lions had gone to a snare sweep in Zambia, so removing snares that left out to catch bushmeat that are indiscriminate and will kill any animal that goes through them. You know where even though the money came from lions and hopefully it will protect Why is going to protect anything that goes through that area. So now the aim of the game is those species we do have a focus on them but equally the funds from them are protecting everything and they're protecting their brethren as it were. And even there So things like the leopard book, we've given out donations to Snow Leopard projects in Afghanistan, even though the majority of the pictures in the book were of African efforts, because that's the thing, most people who've got photographs, we've actually done the same for Java and leopards. So the charismatic species that there are more pictures of can help, you know that they're distant cousins and other animals in the wild as well through featuring and other books.

Angela Nicholson: 45:25

Fantastic. Yes, it must be really nice to know that it is genuinely working.

Margot Raggett: 45:29

Yeah. It's a never ending battle, though. You know that we've given out some great donations and you have some highs, and then you find out that, you know, an incident happened regardless. And I always describe it, someone asked me, what successes can you claim that you've had, because of the remembering series, and I genuinely say, I really can't tell you hands on heart that, you know, I can claim that entirely for us. But we are one hose fighting a massive forest fire. And if we left, there'd be one hose left is the way I describe it. You know, it's a collective conservation effort that we all need to be part of. It is good, but I do back all the demons sometimes when you know, there are failures. But you know, I feel enough purpose that I keep going.

Angela Nicholson: 46:16

Well, I think it's a good time to go for Six from SheClicks. And I've got 10 Questions from SheClickers. I would like you to answer six of them, please. But before I ask you to pick your first numbers, I just want to say that quite a few people who sent in questions also sent their thanks, and messages of support for you. And they're really grateful for what you're doing with the remembering wildlife series. I just wanted to pass that on, rather than read it with every question.

Margot Raggett: 46:42

Thank you.

Angela Nicholson: 46:43

So could I have your first number, please?

Margot Raggett: 46:46

Err number one!

Angela Nicholson: 46:48

Okay. Wildlife isn't always pretty. As a wildlife photographer, where do you draw the line? How real should wildlife photography be? And at what point? Do we sense the content that is shared? That question is from Rung.

Margot Raggett: 47:00

I think that it all depends on what you're trying to achieve with your photography. So certainly, for the remembering books, what I'm trying to achieve is beautiful images of wildlife that, you know, I'm targeting, I always think you know, that these books can be shared with children who might get upset by particularly gory images. So I don't tend to include them in the vendoring, I have a personal preference of what I enjoy watching and photographing, which is often more kind of interactions and intimate moments between animals and storytelling in terms of what's happening. I've sat in Safari vehicles, where there's particularly men, it has to be said, you know, wanting to get into a kill and, you know, get more pictures of blood dripping. And if that's what they want, you know, who am I to judge them? Because it's all part of the cycle of life. That's what's happening now that, you know, obviously, I don't blame the lion for having blood dripping when it's eating. But that's not my preference and what I want to share, but I wouldn't, you know, but I suppose I just counselling, if you're going to take that kind of picture, and then share it on social media, you're probably not going to get many likes for it, or no one's going to want to buy a picture of it as a print. But maybe, if it's a scientific journal that wants to document a particular a behaviour, that's what you're targeting, then take the pictures for that purpose. But think about why you want to take a picture, I suppose it's my answer.

Angela Nicholson: 48:31

Okay, so can I have your second number, please?

Margot Raggett: 48:34

Umm two.

Angela Nicholson: 48:37

Number two. What do you look for in a photograph when you're considering images for a new book? And that's from several people.

Margot Raggett: 48:44

Well, I think I've told you a little bit about it. Yeah, I'm looking for beautiful. So I'm looking for I mean, there's basics that you're looking for, but you know, it didn't focus or at least the eyes are in focus. So sometimes you'll get sent images where the focus point is, they've missed the eyes, and it's on the ear or on the chest or some date. So, you know, you're looking for technical basics in terms of what you're taking, and then I'm looking for beautiful, then I'm looking for something that I haven't seen before. That's unusual, you know, and then it might be that, again, as I said, you know, ever we have hundreds of pictures of leopards and lolling in a tree, and they're all beautiful, but I can only really have one in the book. So I'll choose my favourite out of all of those, and the rest of them make it and you'll get people that undoubtedly are kind of upset or disappointed that they're loving the image of a leopard and gee, didn't get chosen because it's nice, but you kind of have to understand, we're trying to show a variety of shots. So I also choose images that showcase a variety of techniques of photography. So we will normally have a few motion blurs. We'll have a few action. We'll have some close up portraits, we'll have some landscapes, and so when we do our initial cut of it image selection and we go back and look at it, we might end up saying those two images are a bit too similar. You've got two mothers, you know, kind of nuzzling their cubs. So we'll only choose one and we'll go back and kind of see if we can find another behaviour or moment that we haven't seen before. So I'm trying to have a real variety across the book. I also like for the book having different kinds of colour palettes. So if you go through, you might see that we have like a green section and then a blue section and then a orangey sunset section as well. So again, you know, just kind of different scenes and colours and things that are a bit unusual. They're beautiful is my overriding desire for these books.

Angela Nicholson: 50:42

Yes. Okay, so can I have your third number please?

Margot Raggett: 50:46

Five.

Angela Nicholson: 50:47

This question is from Paula is there an animal that you would love to photograph but you haven't managed to yet?

Margot Raggett: 50:52

Oh, for me personally plenty. I have never done any underwater photography. I don't die if I do love to snorkel but I haven't spent the time PG myself or learning how to do underwater photography and and all the equipment that comes with that. But some of the images coming out that you see from underwater is staggeringly beautiful. So anything that's underwater apart from photographing it from the top I haven't done and I'd love to so whether that's you know, whales, you see amazing results. Tropical Fish. I haven't particular affection for turtles, and I spend a lot of time in Greece. And there's a turtle conservation project that I've spent a lot of time with. Yeah, I'd love to be able to photograph and underwater with knights swimming with them. Above land polar bears. Most of the bears I haven't spent time for said it's only sloth bears I've seen close up enough to take pictures of I haven't been to South America and seen Jaguars. I've never seen a blimp in pangolin. In the wild. They drive me crazy. I adore pangolins. And I've seen them in rescue centres. But I'm always the person I always joke with turns up in a camp of people. So you should have been here yesterday because there was a pangolin you know, don't seen a conga on that table. But I never actually have seen one just in the wild. So the and again, Ariel birds, you know, I have I've seen these species, lots of them across Africa. But I haven't spent a lot of time really focusing on birds before. And I've become more and more of a twitcher in recent years and using my Merlin app to identify birds. And the reality is having gone from life behind a computer doing the office job to being out in the bush and and you know really loving being in nature and spending time taking pictures. 80% of my time is now back behind the computer making the books doing publicity doing talks like this everything else. So I don't have that much time. The luxury is that like timeout taking pictures as I used to unfortunate thing, but still plenty I'd love to see.

Angela Nicholson: 52:59

Yeah, is there one species that you're thinking, actually, I'm going to target this one next not not for the book, but for your own personal photography?

Margot Raggett: 53:07

No, I am trying to get somewhere where I can see have my best chance of seeing pangolins in the wild. So I'm in talks with a few places that might make it possible but No, not particularly. Okay, oh it's exciting. Good luck with the pangolins. Thank you.

Angela Nicholson: 53:24

Can I have your fourth number, please.

Margot Raggett: 53:27

Six.

Angela Nicholson: 53:28

Number six. This is from Paula again, do you need to change your approach when you're shooting in Africa versus in the UK?

Margot Raggett: 53:35

Well, there's physical constraints that you have to think about in terms of and a lot of the time and I'm in Africa I in the vehicles, so Land Cruisers, and I've got a really good setup where I have the big lens set up on a mounted head I use you might see in the picture, if I can I have the camera on ahead that's on the skimmer plate, it's called that then rest on a beanbag. And that gives me really good manoeuvrability that I can swivel and move the camera without having to try and handhold a 400. Or even if I've got a converter on to an 800. Whereas my local park in London in Richmond Park where we have the red deer and other species but I'm not physically strong enough to handhold and walk through a long way with the 400 lens and a tripod. So there I will use different lenses and you know, 7200 is more often that I'll be using when I'm there. So there's that kind of difference. And again, you know, you're not having to think about your physical safety normally in the UK compared to Africa. So again, there's a lot of animals that you can be physically threatened by if you've got too close with, but in terms of the basics and how you're taking pictures of what you're trying to achieve and getting lost in the images. No, it's the same.

Angela Nicholson: 54:51

Okay, so your penultimate number then please.

Margot Raggett: 54:54

Okay. Nine.

Angela Nicholson: 54:57

Now this is a question that was asked by several people. Which photographer do you admire most?

Margot Raggett: 55:03

In totality, I would have to say, Angela Scott, because not only does she paint beautiful, beautiful pictures, and she's so talented as a photographer, I just adore her work in her eye and what she thinks about, but as a kind of mentor and friend, her ethics and her thoughts on wildlife and conservation, I'm lucky enough to be able to spend hours and hours talking things through with her and getting her opinions on situations I've encountered and conservation ideas I've heard about whether they, you know, I really do think it's a good idea or a bad idea. Her and her husband, Jonathan Scott, really have dedicated their life to conservation, that day in day out, they're pushing it at their own personal expense, so that they should earn a much healthier living than they do because they give away so much. So I think it's not just you know, that there are photographers who are very artistic and, and out there getting great shots and that you know, might dedicate good chunks of time to go out on shoots and things. But I think holistically who would I most like to emulate in terms of looking back on my life and my body of work and body of work, not just being the pictures I leave behind. But my contribution to conservation as well, then it's Angela Scott, but 100%. And she's one of the very few I don't know if it's someone else's also, but it's not the only woman to have ever won wildlife photographer of the year. And I think that, you know, a huge testament to who she is and what she's done.

Angela Nicholson: 56:38

Yes, yes, I think that's a great answer. Thank you for that. Okay, so your last number, then please?

Margot Raggett: 56:44

Just to be controversial. I'll go backwards. Number three.

Angela Nicholson: 56:47

Okay. If you could only visit one location in the world for wildlife photography, where would it be? And what would you photograph? That question is from Beverly.

Margot Raggett: 56:56

Goodness, it is a challenge I can answer what would it be more easily than where, and I'll start with that. I always say this, I only have like one afternoon left to take pictures and spend time in the company of wildlife, it would be baby elephants. I say that with the caveat that the animal I most often spend time looking for is leopards. I just think they are the most beautiful creature ever created on this planet. I adore leopards and I always am after trying to photograph them and spend time in their company. But the entertainment factor of baby elephants being ridiculous and running around with their trunks wobbling that they don't know how to control and being naughty and being pulled up by their mothers and just be crazy that it would have to be baby elephant. So it would be them. And so therefore you then think where you might get to see baby elephants. I mean, there's so it honestly, it would have been an aside Myra for a long time, I am deeply saddened to say the main Reserve and the Maasai Mara now is so out of control in terms of tourism, numbers, vehicles behaviour. It's heartbreaking and lots of photographers I know are kind of pulling out of that area now. So I guess maybe it will be a conservancy instead of the main reserve at the last time or so that I still have some of the landscapes to look at. Or maybe somewhere like Mara dogs, maybe it's there's so many places that I love the Okavango Delta. I've spent a lot of time in Botswana in recent years. Yeah, that's very hard. And very hard.

Angela Nicholson: 58:32

Yes, I can understand the attraction of baby elephants absolutely. As someone whose Instagram account is constantly spammed by videos of baby elephants, primarily because I always look at them. They are very enticing little creatures.

Margot Raggett: 58:45

Yes, yes, exactly. They are. They're amazing. And just, that's one of the things I love about elephants, like they are so similar to humans, and that, you know, the kind of the stages they go through have kind of naughty little children through dependent tempestuous teenager. And so we're just, you know, kind of playing out through to the maturity of the wisdom of the matriarch leading her herd. And yeah, they're just saying that elephants have a very special place in my heart for reasons I described.

Angela Nicholson: 59:16

Yes. Well, Margot, thank you so much for joining me today on the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. It's been lovely chatting with you.

Margot Raggett: 59:23

Thank you so much for having me. And once again, thank you say I was truly touched and surprised with the award. So thank you to everyone who supported us out and supported me in that way. Thank you.

Angela Nicholson: 59:34

You're very welcome. Thanks for listening to this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. You'll find links to Margot's website and social media channels in the show notes. I'll be back with another episode soon. So please subscribe to the show on your favourite podcast platform and tell all your friends and followers about it. You'll also find SheClicks on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. If you search for she SheClicks net. So until next time enjoy your photography