Brooke Shaden: Love At First Idea

Brooke Shaden: 0:04

You know, I have a belief that my art lives beyond me once I release it into the world and every different opinion about that art only makes the art grow stronger. And I'm not trying to convince anyone of any particular thing when I put work out there.

Angela Nicholson: 0:18

Welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson and I'm the founder of SheClicks, which is a community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I talk to women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them, and how they got to where they are now. Our guest today is Brooke Shaden, a conceptual photographer and a true visual storyteller, who frequently includes herself in her images, and aims to destigmatise grief, with often dark yet whimsical images. Hi, Brooke, thanks so much for joining me today on the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast.

Brooke Shaden: 0:53

Oh, thank you. I'm so excited.

Angela Nicholson: 0:56

Oh, it's great. It's really nice. So I know you started with writing and then you move to filmmaking, and then you moved to photography, was that an entirely creative decision? Or was there a commercial aspect involved as well?

Brooke Shaden: 1:11

It was definitely nothing to do with commercial, I was thinking purely creatively. And it was really a necessity, I would say if anything, it was much more the the need to create in general and then realising that the way that I like to create was evolving. And so when I went from writing to filmmaking, it was actually spurred on by this feeling like, Oh, I'm actually good at something like I could make films. And maybe I could be good at that. And I was kind of chasing that desire that need to be good at something. And so I went on to filmmaking, I wasn't actually that good at it, but I was better than other things. And then then I moved on to photography. And again, that was just a necessity move, because I really discovered that I didn't like making films as much as I thought I would, because I don't like working with other people. So when I moved on to photography, it was more so I need to do stuff by myself, I need to have full control. I just need that feeling like, like I'm making a step forward in a way that feels good. And so that's why I did it. It was purely just creatively driven, and the desire to do something that I can have control over.

Angela Nicholson: 2:21

So did you ever envisage that you might make a living from what you do?

Brooke Shaden: 2:26

I kind of did in in a sense, I, like I think that I'm one of those sort of rare people who has always assumed success, you know, like a lot of people assume failure about their lives or about something that they're doing like, Well, I'll try this, but I probably won't succeed. And I've always been the opposite, where I think I'll try this. And I think I'll probably succeed at this. And not in a way that that is really grounded in any truth. But it's, it's more so just this innate sense that the the most successful people are the hardest working people. And I know that at least I can do that I can work really hard. And so I always kind of thought, whatever I do, I'm just gonna work as hard as I can until I hit some success. And so when I started photography, specifically, I had that feeling like, I don't know what I'm doing. I've never worked a camera. I don't know, Photoshop, but I know that I can work really hard at all of those things. And I know that I have a vision. And so from there, I thought, in some form, I'll find success. But part two to that is this idea of what is success, and I've always had this feeling that success. Even the smallest successes are big, that's always been my my reaction to life. So something as simple as Oh, my gosh, somebody liked a picture of mine, or Oh, my gosh, somebody wants to, you know, pay me $10 For a picture in the beginning, that was like a huge deal to me. And so I thought, wow, this is success, and I kept chasing that feeling.

Angela Nicholson: 3:58

I think there's a couple of important points you've made there, because you were saying about, you know, always assumed that you would be successful. But I think if you have that mentality, you also find ways to succeed. Whereas if you think well, I'll give it a go, but it probably won't work, then you're always looking for that endpoint, or that oh, well, there we go. I knew it wouldn't work instead of just working your way around objects. But also, we all have an innate desire for a bit of validation, don't we, you know, like you say somebody paid $10 for a picture or, or you know, somebody liked one. I don't know if you feel the same thing. But sometimes you know, you when you make a picture, and you think this is the one I want to print and put on the wall. That's a really nice feeling too, isn't it? That's a really important thing.

Brooke Shaden: 4:42

Oh, yeah. And I actually think that this is kind of an under talked about idea to say this positive reinforcement and validation in the arts. I think that it's actually extremely important in the lives of most people who choose a creative career that well placed comment or somebody who says something just the right time. And it could be something really small. But having those moments of validation really keep an artist going. And I think it's something that we don't like to talk about as artists, because we like to think we exist in a vacuum. And, and it doesn't matter what anybody says. But I think that, that positive feedback really goes a long way, especially at the beginning of a career when you're not so sure if what you're doing is all that great and, and having those moments of validation really helps move things forward. And I love it. I mean, I like to think about it, I like to, I credit other people with the fact that I have a career because if I hadn't received certain, you know, feedback in the beginning of my career, I don't know if I would have continued the belief in myself that that I could do this. And that's why I think whenever I talk to emerging artists about their careers or their dreams, my first reaction is not to be disparaging about what they're creating, but to show the potential of what they're doing, because you never know if they need that little kernel of, of potential to just sort of grow within them to create a great career out of it.

Angela Nicholson: 6:05

Yeah, I think that's really important. I mean, I can think of a couple of instances in my past where somebody has just said, a real, sort of almost a throwaway comment that I was good at doing something in particular, and they actually had significant impacts upon me. So actually, to be able to do that, consciously, is a really nice thing. And I think it's very important thing to try and do as often as you can. Yeah. But, um, so how did you actually go about starting to make money in photography,

Brooke Shaden: 6:31

I decided to outline three different ways that I could possibly make money. So when I started photography, I did not know that it was a career like I, I guess, in some part of my brain, I knew that people were out there photographing weddings, for example. And someone paid them for that. And like, so part of me knew that. But the other part of me the bigger part was like, How does anybody actually make money from this? Who is doing this? And more specifically, who is making any money from dark, fine art, conceptual work? Like that's a weird genre, that probably not a lot of people are rolling in it from doing that kind of work. And so I just thought, Well, okay, I don't want to do any other kind of work photography, for me was not, that was not love at first camera, it was love at first idea. So I did not want to pick up a camera, I still am very uninterested in the meeting medium of photography, I'm much more interested in the idea no matter how that comes to be. And so when I started photography, I didn't think to myself, I need to make money. Therefore, I should shoot portraits or shoot weddings, or, you know, something like that. I thought, the only thing I want to be doing with a camera is this weird stuff that I'm making. So how could I possibly make money from that alone. And so my mind went to three places, I thought I can try to get into galleries and sell prints. I can write a book, which was very presumptuous at the time. And I can teach a workshop. So those were the three categories that I outlined for myself for my first year. And I said, that's what I'm going to do. And so the first year I started photography, I started to put my work out there. I remember submitting to over 100 galleries that first year just trying to get my foot in the door. I did write a book that I self published, and I started teaching workshops the next year. And all three of those things actually ended up being the cornerstones of my business

Angela Nicholson: 8:26

Oh, wow, that's fantastic. So who were

Brooke Shaden: 8:26

You know, initially, I was really inspired even to this day. your inspirations initially? Or maybe they still are. by film right off the bat, because I had just graduated from film school. So my mind was very much in that realm. And so I remember the movie Pan's Labyrinth being just this massive influence for me, in the beginning of my work, and even all through film school, this idea of escapism, and how do you bring light to the dark and just all of these ideas that I think that that movie in particular touches on? So film was really big for me, I have always loved classic dark paintings, like Gothic style paintings. And then I started to discover photographers right in the beginning, like Gregory Crewdson, Giulia, Fullerton baton. These were some artists that I started looking to as thinking, wow, I want to get to where they are in their careers, but also just in their minds the way that they could take an idea and build it into such a big universe. I wanted that so badly and at the time, it was just me and my little apartment just taking pictures of myself and it wasn't that grand and not that it isn't even now but but it wasn't then and and so that was all my inspiration, this kind of filmic style of creating.

Angela Nicholson: 9:49

And what do your ideas come from? I mean, I know a lot of your work is very personally like you say a lot of it is is quite dark in some respects. But how do you first get the idea for a particular image around a theme?

Brooke Shaden: 10:00

You know, this has changed some over the years. But largely what I do is I and this is a controversial statement, but I'm gonna say it anyway, I like to think about audience when I create, because I'm not really creating just for myself. Not that I wouldn't if it was just me, and nobody ever saw it, I still would, of course, but I really love the give and take that art allows with an artist and an audience. And so I often think, okay, I felt this thing, or I've been through this thing, or there's this general idea that I want to convey. And then my immediate thought is, how do I want to make my audience feel when they come up against that idea. So the idea typically will come from a life experience that I had, or just a topic that I think is fascinating, or that I have a strong opinion about. And then the next step is, but how do I want people to feel when they look at the final image, and then I start to deconstruct from there. So based on how I want the audience to feel, I started to think well, what visuals would help me do that? What colours what props? What symbols? Can I put in this image? And then I just deconstructed all the way back to the idea.

Angela Nicholson: 11:06

Do you make sketches or write notes? or anything? Or is it all stored in your head when you're planning through an idea?

Brooke Shaden: 11:12

I do both. It depends. I forget a lot of things. So usually, I have a very, very long list of notes in my phone and on my computer that is just endless with ideas. So I tend to write out the idea and I used to do a lot more sketching. But honestly, it was so pointless, because nobody could tell what the sketch was. And I could barely tell what I was trying to convey. So usually I just write it out works a lot better like that. But I do plan everything in advance. So I'm not the type of artist to grab a camera and see what inspires me or to see what what happens to catch my eye that day. I always know what I once my camera setup, it's because I know the pose, the colours, the props, the composition, every bit of it. I know already at that point.

Angela Nicholson: 11:54

So if you go out for a walk in the woods, so do you take a camera with you? Or do you go out and you just experience your walk? And if you see something, you might come back to it for photograph?

Brooke Shaden: 12:04

Yeah, I definitely I never have a camera like it's a big joke with all my friends because I'm like the photographer least likely to have a camera on me. I don't like having a camera on me. I think it's distracting. I go on a hike every day. And I attend to have an audio book playing. And I'm just looking for what looks interesting, what looks like a good spot. And I'll take a picture with my phone to remember where I was. But then I go back later with a camera. And there's just no point for me. Usually if I'm on a hike, it's either because I'm exercising or it's because I it's beautiful outside. But if it's beautiful outside, it's not good for photography. Like it's bright, it's sunny, I'm not going to take a good picture anyway. So there's no point. So yeah, I never have a camera, which really kills me when there's a great stormy sky out or something. I can never capture it. But yeah, so not for me.

Angela Nicholson: 12:59

Fair enough. Oh, as we said, some of the photographs that you make there about very painful aspects of life. I can see that would be or can be very cathartic. But how do you manage your emotions during the process of producing the artwork?

Brooke Shaden: 13:13

Yeah, you know, it's funny, you ask that because I just recently shared my photography for the first time with my therapist, who thought it was very eye opening to see that work, because she had not seen it in like a year and a half we've been working together. And, and and she asked the same question. And I said, you know, to her and to you that I really don't create anything until I've processed the thing that I'm creating about. And so once I'm in the, in the in the thick of it, where I'm making the work, I'm thinking less about the emotions of it and more about how I can convey those emotions to somebody else. And it creates this removal, which I think is really important for me personally in my way of processing grief, which is to have this process where you think about the thing that happened, you've really thought through every aspect of it and and in the end, you're restoring the experience that you had for yourself and for others. And I think that the process of restoring an event in your life is immensely helpful to figure out how you want to think back on that event that occurred, what lessons you want to have learned from that experience. And once you've done that, then I find it so much easier to create with real clarity, where you can properly express the thing that you're trying to express. I'm very interested and concerned when I create that I'm not trying to create work that traumatises Somebody else. I'm not trying to create work that triggers somebody else. I'm trying to create work that allows another person to have a cathartic experience like I did in the processing of that idea. And so I'm usually I would say 99.9% of the time not creating one When I'm feeling something distressing, I've only done that maybe a small handful of times. And those times were not actually all that productive for me. I personally, when I'm feeling really upset, or I'm frustrated, or I'm sad, if I tried to then create, I find that I can't, my brain can't hold those two things. At in Tanda, I can't be sad and trying to take a technically good photo. And so then I find that I'm frustrated with the picture that I ended up with, or I find that I just dissociate from what I'm feeling to focus on the technical aspects. So for me, it's very much not not a thing I do.

Angela Nicholson: 15:37

Yeah, I can see that that would certainly make sense. Now, I was chatting with a group of SheClickers, about some of your work. And we all connected with it emotionally. But it was quite apparent that some of us had different interpretations of your images. And I wondered, does that frustrate you? Because you want people to, you know, see what your meaning is? Or do you just want people to form some sort of connection and get their own meaning from it?

Brooke Shaden: 16:00

Yeah, no, I just want any meaning. I don't care what it is. Honestly, I think that, you know, I have a belief that my art lives beyond me, once I release it into the world, and every different opinion about that art only makes the art grow stronger. And I'm not trying to convince anyone of any particular thing when I put work out there. So, for example, I recently spoke at a conference where I showed this one image that's been kind of a controversial image of mine, where I'm perched on a desk, and I've got red berries dripping down my legs, and I've got my skirt pulled up. And and it's for me, it's an image about child boss. And when I asked the audience, what does this mean to you, the answers were everything from miscarriage to abortion, to losing a child to some sort of illness, to not being able to have children. It was a two menstruation and coming of age, it was everything. And for me, that's the beauty of creating an image that's based at the symbolism because the symbolism of the red berry looking like blood, the skirt being pulled up wearing white, for example, like all of these choices are specific. And they're specific yes to my situation. But they're also very specific to a lot of situations. And that's why I tend to create more simply where I let a single symbol and a single colour and a really simple location all speak for itself, so that it can be interpreted in different ways. I find when I look at other people's art, especially conceptual work, if there are too many specific ideas all happening at once, then it creates a very limited view of what that image could be about. And I don't particularly love that experience as a viewer. And so I'm trying to curate the experience for other viewers, that's similar to how I want to experience art.

Angela Nicholson: 17:51

Yes, I guess if you're very specific, then the viewers are more likely to spend time trying to work out what you meant, rather than connect with it emotionally. Yeah. And put their own meaning on it. Exactly. And therefore, I think when you have your own meaning on an image, you do remember it more strongly.

Brooke Shaden: 18:07

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And my hope is that people can look at an image and, and feel that I made it just for them, you know, that's what I really want is to have a global experience, and yet a very specific one on one experience with each person. And I want viewers to know that your opinion is completely valid about my image, and I'm creating my image for you, you know, it gets not just me creating in a vacuum, as I've said, it's, it's really me creating for another person, then I think that that then goes back to the idea of purpose, and what is your purpose in creating and in your life in general. And for me, my purpose is not to heal myself with my art, it's not to do something that I think is prolific, it's to, in the end, help one person live a better life, because I made art that spoke to them in some personal way.

Angela Nicholson: 19:01

So I've been thinking of your work as deeply personal, but actually, perhaps it's more correct to say it's deeply emotional, because it's, there are aspects of your personal life that are in it, but it's you've already processed it and moved on. And you're reflecting upon the emotions that were involved.

Brooke Shaden: 19:19

Exactly. Right. And I appreciate that distinction, actually. And it's what I'm always DMing people on Instagram when they say Are you okay, I'm worried about you. And I always say don't be worried about me because if I'm creating this work, it's because I have already processed this work. And so I'm not in it. I'm not in the middle of a crisis, you know, and, and so I'm always telling people that that yeah, it's it's personal. It certainly came from within me and something that I've experienced, but, but just like all of life, you know, anything you experience can be turned into a story for other people, and that's how I intend it.

Angela Nicholson: 19:55

Now, I know you said you prefer to work by yourself but you do use an assistant, you know, I've seen people in your behind the scenes working with you. It How did how did you find the right person? Because when you're working on such intense emotional projects, I think it probably takes a particular person Yeah, to come and help you with that for you to convey the messages without them sort of going, 'Oh, no!'.

Brooke Shaden: 20:19

You know, it's funny that you asked that. So I don't actually have an assistant, I just call up friends whenever somebody's willing to come out and do something weird with me. So in a sense, I find that much easier, because my friends already know me and my story and kind of where I'm at emotionally. But also, by the time I'm ready to take that picture, I find it a completely joyful experience. So even though it might be a difficult topic, I'm mostly just telling people hold that stand there do this. And, and we're just having a blast doing it. And so there's actually not a lot of heaviness that comes along with the experience, mostly were, you know, like, out of the lake sinking in some mud, trying to not knock my white over into the lake. And you know, like, it's always just something ridiculous and fun and funny. And we have such a good time. So it's actually I mean, this is why not that I'm trying to get on the very controversial topic of AI or anything, but this is why I'm so not interested in having anybody else do any part of my process for me, whether that it's a computer or a person or anything, because I want to be there having every experience possible in the making of that art from start to finish. Like I want to be out there in the mud, and I want to get my hands dirty, and I want to be freezing cold in the lake at 5am and all of that. And so, you know, for me, that's the fun of it. So it's pretty joyful.

Angela Nicholson: 21:40

Now, before we started this conversation, I was going to ask you about the commissions that you undertake, because obviously I was thinking about what if they're your stories that you normally portray? How do you start working with someone else? And how do you make it their image? Not yours? But it sounds like you're because you consider your audience when you're producing work? Is that what you channel when you're working on a commission?

Brooke Shaden: 22:03

Yeah, it is. And it's actually commissioners are really interesting for me, I don't do a tonne of them. Because I find that if every single aspect of an image is not on my terms, then I get really bored with it. So so I have to do commissions very selectively. But I really commissions are interesting, because I think about in the same way I do my own images, I think about what is the central theme that I'm trying to get across. And that's where I start with every person that does a commissioned image with me is what is the central idea you want somebody to understand when they look at this picture? At least generally, and then I start to work backward again. So then I think well, okay, what objects could portray that what location what colours, and I just break it down the same way that I normally would. And then the challenge is then convincing the person you know, like, well, I promise you this is the way that will really get people to understand that thing. And they usually trust me, and it usually goes really well. And it can be really fun. But yeah, it's not that different. Because I find every single emotion in the world, we've all experienced them on some level, maybe not to the degree others have. So if somebody comes to me and says, I've experienced depression, and I want to create an image about that, well, I can't say that I've personally dealt with depression in my life, as you know, something that that really sticks with me. But of course, I know what it's like to be deeply, deeply sad, and to go through small periods of depression, because everybody knows what that's like. And so I can connect to that just the same way that they can connect to my chronic anxiety, for example that I have, and there's always something that we can connect to. So for me, it, it's almost still feels like a self portrait, or like, it's really mine, because I know that feeling, and I'm creating how I would normally.

Angela Nicholson: 23:51

Do tend to appear in those images as well?

Brooke Shaden: 23:54

It depends. Sometimes I get commissioned for book covers, for example. And so then they might give me the freedom to just make it on my own as long as I am approved as the subject of the book, you know, because sometimes it's a specific look. Yeah, you know, it just depends. So sometimes yes, sometimes no, it really depends. But usually, if somebody's commissioned me, for example, let's see, I photographed authors before I photographed bands before, then, of course, it's important that it's them in the picture. But otherwise, I tend to use myself if they'll wipe me it goes much smoother that way.

Angela Nicholson: 24:30

With book covers, do you just get a pricey, you know, a summary of the story? Or do you get to read the whole book, so you can make your own assessment?

Brooke Shaden: 24:39

Usually I just get a summary and they'll say this is the summary. We're kind of looking for these, you know, elements in the cover, or they won't say anything, and they'll just say, What do you think, you know, based on this summary, but often I will ask it in fact, I think I would say probably 100% of the Commission's I've done I asked people can you send me in Just of mine that drew you to my work that maybe I can use as a reference to create something for you, because when your work spans, you know, for me, it's 14 years and over 1000 images that I've published, then it you know, it runs the gamut from really soft and whimsical to super dark and disturbing. And so I really have to get a some sort of read on what they saw that attracted them to me for this project.

Angela Nicholson: 25:25

Do they ever send you an image and of yours, say, or something like this? And you think, oh, no, not that one or the opposite? Yes, I really want to develop that again.

Brooke Shaden: 25:36

Yes, this happens a lot. Actually, it just happened recently. And I actually wrote back to the band, and I said, I can't work on this particular project, if it's based on this image. But if you want to pick another one, I'm happy to you know, and so and they did, and it was it went great. But there are times when that happens, or when somebody will licence an image for a book cover or album art or something like that. And it's an image that either I don't have anymore, because I was bad. And I didn't backup my work or something crazy like that. Or it's one that is just, it's too low res. It's not gonna look good. And I know that but they don't, or I just hate it. Like, I just wish I hadn't made it. And I don't want it on a book cover. And so those three scenarios come up sometimes.

Angela Nicholson: 26:22

Yeah, I guess that would be pretty bad. Actually, we go to the shops, and you walk in, and it's like, number one best seller right in front of you that there's the picture you can't stand seeing anymore.

Brooke Shaden: 26:31

You know what sidenote story about this, I did a cover once. And it was for a pretty big book. And I saw I made this commissioned piece. And it was okay, it wasn't my favourite image. But it worked pretty well. And then I sent it in. And then I saw the book finally, and in a bookstore, and it was totally re edited. Like without my permission. And, and so it was edited so poorly. Oh, no, just you know, from a compositing standpoint, they had added some wallpaper in the background that wasn't there. And there was just this big, like, white line around the subject where they hadn't, you know, erased it in properly. And it was just well, it was so tragically awful. And from then on, I rewrote my contract. Do you know to be very clear about what can be changed about an image or not, but that was a terrible lesson to learn.

Angela Nicholson: 27:23

Yeah, we're always learning that you often share your creative process on Instagram. Is that an important aspect for you?

Brooke Shaden: 27:32

Yeah, you know, it never occurred to me that anybody would ask me how I make my images. I'm just out there poking around Photoshop hoping something works. And so when people started asking me, I learned very quickly that an important part, at least for me of being an artist is sharing how I became an artist and what works and what doesn't work. And and both of those equally, I would say I try really hard to share my process and be very transparent about that. But I also try really hard to make sure that anything that I'm creating, if it's a failure, I state that it's a failure. If it's if it's a success, I state that it's a success.

Angela Nicholson: 28:10

Okay, well, I think it's probably a really good time to go for the Six From SheClicks section. I've got 10 Questions from SheClickers, and I would like you to answer six of them, please, by selecting numbers from one to 10. So could I have your first number, please?

Brooke Shaden: 28:23

Yeah, let's go with my favourite number eight.

Angela Nicholson: 28:26

Number eight, okay. Do your titles or captions come before or after your picture? That question is from lists.

Brooke Shaden: 28:35

They come after typically, every once in a while, I'll get a title first. And some I mean, that's great. When that happens, because then it it totally informs the whole image. But I after I make the image titling, and captioning is vital to my process in like, in a way that maybe is more so than a lot of other artists. And I say that because I can, I am just a master manipulator. Like, that's how I like to think of myself. And so when I get an image in it, I look at that, and I think, okay, now how can I nudge viewers in a specific direction to think a certain thing? Or ask a certain question? And so titling an image to me is so important, because it allows the viewer to read just a few words that indicates maybe what the theme is or what I want them to focus on first. And then when I write my caption, you know, I actually, years ago, I did a poll with my audience once and I said, Why do you follow my work? Is it for the images or the words and almost 50% of people said, it's almost completely for the captions that I write with the images. And I thought that was fascinating. And just something that I think is so overlooked the importance of being able to communicate a story that is both personal and universal. And that's what I want to do. I practice this craft so much because I believe that a good caption on social media or in a gallery or wherever it is, Will make or break the viewers experience with that art piece and with their connection to the artists because art, you know, it can exist on its own and it is wonderful and you know, an image can be, you know, say 1000 Words and all of that. But if you get to say another 1000 words, in addition to that, and make the viewer connect with you, as an individual, I am so much more likely to fall in love with not just that art piece, but that artists if I know their story, and I feel a connection to it.

Angela Nicholson: 30:29

Do you ever feel tempted to kind of throw a bit of curveball in with the title? So it does, you know, makes people think, well, well, how does that connect to the image?

Brooke Shaden: 30:38

I do. Yeah. And that happens often when an image I find really does speak for itself, where it's very clear, at least the the general direction people's minds are gonna go, then I might make the title a lot more vague, so that it's not pointing to something specific, but it's pointing to something more general. And I do that sometimes, but I find less frequently.

Angela Nicholson: 30:59

Okay, so could I have another number, please? To number two, most of your images are very evocative and looking at pain or grief. Do you ever compose images that hold the joy that precedes some of the grief portrayed? That's from Yanina?

Brooke Shaden: 31:15

Yes, definitely. It happens sometimes. And actually, it's I'm very intrigued by this question, because I just wrote a note to myself, right. And, you know, right before we started this podcast, that said, maybe do a month of joy. And so I'm thinking about December, January, creating the whole month, just joyful images, not necessarily that look joyful, but that are based in a in an emotion that associated with joy. And so every once in a while, I will and I find actually, there's a if there's any miscommunication between me and my viewers, I often find that people think that I'm depressed, but I am not, you know, generally not that I don't experience a lot of sadness, or grief or whatever. I'm a super happy person. And when I create my images, I look at them and I see something positive, almost universally across my images. Because I look at that, and I see perseverance, I see beauty where there was darkness or where there is darkness. And so I think that yeah, I think coming up, I want to focus on really pulling more of the brightness out of my images and seeing how people react to that. I'm so curious.

Angela Nicholson: 32:26

I look forward to seeing those images. That sounds really interesting. So your next number, please?

Brooke Shaden: 32:32

One.

Angela Nicholson: 32:33

Number one. Your images are very evocative. Do you always start with the meaning and work from there, or sometimes you start with an image and fine tune it to fit the meaning when it becomes apparent?

Brooke Shaden: 32:44

You know, actually, I do do that sometimes much less frequently. So usually, I have the idea, I move forward, I make it and and there we are. And it's very straightforward. But every once in a while, start an image that I think has one meaning and then once I start editing, I realise, either based on the idea just evolving and editing, or the Edit, informing the idea, I will change what the meaning is. And this is where titling comes in really handy. Or I can choose a title that nudges it in a certain direction. But there have definitely been times where I've created an image that I think is about one thing, and then I realised just the visuals point to something else. And sometimes that makes it a failure. And sometimes I say, well, that's not what I was going for, I'm going to try again. But every once in a while I get something where I think oh, that's better. Like I think I actually like that better. And we're just gonna go for it and pretend like it was always meant to be like that.

Angela Nicholson: 33:35

Why not! While you were speaking there, my mind went to the image with the two elk skeletons, because I mean, nobody could have planned that, you just found them. And then and so your idea came?

Brooke Shaden: 33:46

Yeah, exactly.

Angela Nicholson: 33:48

I was very intrigued because I found a badger skeleton in the woods near us. And honestly, my last thought was having a photograph with it. I was a bit freaked out. But your mind went straight to the creative potential. And I really love that image.

Brooke Shaden: 34:04

Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. Because, you know, it sparked quite a lot of backlash when I released it. And I love that image personally, and I spent weeks and weeks thinking about how I was going to photograph them because I found them. And then I went on a trip for two weeks. And so I had time to think about it. And I every single day, I just hoped that they would still be there when I got back and they were and I actually had a different idea with those elk skeletons. And that was to get inside the ribcage of one of them to photograph it that way. And once I got there, I realised there were simply too many flesh eating beetles crawling up things. Oh, and the ribcage was smaller than I thought it was. And so I thought I'm not going to try to like break the skeleton and squeeze my body in there and then in the end to have all this hair covered and these little beetles it just was too much. So in the moment I rethought it, and I realised that they kind of looked like lungs to me. And I thought that was really fascinating. And so I positioned them in a way that sort of put that out there. But I knew that I wanted to be with it the skeletons and have it look like a natural part of the evolution of life. And so thank you for bringing that up.

Angela Nicholson: 35:16

How many friends did you have to call before one of them said, 'Yes, I'll come and help me with the elke skeleton photo'.

Brooke Shaden: 35:22

You know what, I think I have really good friends because they almost never say no, like, I'm it was, it's amazing to me how, how willing, my friends are to do anything. And I think I honestly think that. And this is just something that I think is a good life lesson. I think that the more enthusiastic you are about something, I think it's infectious for people. And so you're like, when I have these ideas, my friends always tell me that, like, my joy is palpable about it. Like I'm so excited, and so hyped up about it. And I think that there's something to be said for that because I think it's more the not the thing we're doing because trust me, my friend Jaimie, who came along to help with that image, she had her gloves on, She squealed the whole time. She was not into it that same way that I was, but we had a blast, and we still talked about it. So I think I think that's the impetus.

Angela Nicholson: 36:14

Oh, good for her. Okay, so your fourth number, please.

Brooke Shaden: 36:19

Um, let's go to nine.

Angela Nicholson: 36:21

Number nine. Oh, what makes you reach for the paint or non photographic interventions?

Brooke Shaden: 36:27

Ah, so that's something I started in the last few years. And that was actually, I started creating mixed media work, all for a very, almost silly reason. And it was because I felt like I had hit a plateau in my career specifically with galleries and print sales and collectors, where I felt like I had gotten a certain number of print sales, and then things levelled out. And so this was actually a creative decision brought on by a business decision, which was, how can I spice things up with my work for collectors and for galleries, and then also expand my creative abilities. So I started to use first to use oil paint, then I realised that's a fire hazard that I'm not willing to deal with yet. And so I've switched to acrylic. And then I moved on to you know, I started working with clay, I started, I did an entire series of mixed media work, where I painted on top of the prints that I made of the photographic work. And in that I used acrylic paint mixed with dirt and sand from my yard, mixed with hair, and feathers, and all sorts of found things around where I live. And that was just, it was just eye opening experience, I mean to create in a different way. And so now I'm kind of obsessed with the idea of making an original work. Whereas as photographers are really relying on reproductions of our work unless you're using, you know, older historic processes in your work, but if it's digital, certainly, it's a reproduction. So it was kind of neat to be able to say to my collector base, hey, look, I have now originals to offer you. And it was a good experiment. So I enjoyed it.

Angela Nicholson: 38:04

Yeah, sounds like lots of fun, actually. Okay, could I have your penultimate number then please?

Brooke Shaden: 38:09

Five.

Angela Nicholson: 38:10

Okay. This is quite a tough question. Actually. It's from Maria. She says she lost her son to suicide 11 months ago, and she hasn't been able to make one picture there. She's often seen images in her head. It's just how do you create when the pain of grief is so great?

Brooke Shaden: 38:25

That's a great question. I am so sorry for your loss. It's something that, you know, it's gonna be specific for everybody. And, for me, at least, I find I'm going to go back to the idea of purpose to answer this question as best as I can. And the reason why I go back to purpose is because I often think when I'm in a rut, when I'm stuck, I'm not creating, I asked myself, What is my purpose in this life? And does my desire to create an image fulfil that purpose that I want my life have? And, and then I've tried to connect those dots. So if you are feeling like you're too in the throes of grief to create yet, then maybe just start the background work of creating, you've got these ideas in your mind. Now start to think, how do you want to affect people with that work? What good do you want to do with that work? How do you want to make people feel, and I find personally, that I can't really create in the throes of grief. I just, it's just not healthy for me to do. So I wait until after I've processed it. And that can take a long time. That can take years. It could take decades. It could take months, I don't know. But once I do that, then I just say how will this affect people? And then that lets me let go of my story a little bit, knowing that I'm able to gift this to somebody else to bring clarity or closure or healing to another person's life. And so perhaps as you're thinking about this idea of creating from a really terrible moment, that is now a string going on into your life? How can you take that and give it as a gift to somebody else? And the moment you bring other people into it and say, I'm gonna gift this, it becomes a different beast altogether. In my mind, it does. And I think it's really helpful.

Angela Nicholson: 40:14

Okay, thank you. I think that's great advice. I hope that helps Maria. Okay, your final number then please?

Brooke Shaden: 40:20

Six.

Angela Nicholson: 40:21

Okay. What is the most transgressive or mentally challenging thing you've done for a photograph? This is from Liz, she says, once for a drawing, she had to tear up a book, which she really struggled with. But it felt wonderful when she didn't it's it's only it's only a minor thing, really. But, you know, perhaps when you're taught that the treasures, tearing up a book seems pretty bad. So have you had anything like that or maybe more challenging?

Brooke Shaden: 40:46

Yeah, I have, you know that, in fact, I'll share something that's about to be challenging, and something that was so the first one is just something kind of silly. But when it comes to overcoming a mental barrier for an image, an image that I did, in the first year that I was creating, actually, I had to, I had to, you know, I say had like someone was forcing me I need to do for my own purposes, create this image where I wanted my head to be upside down in the dark water. And so I wanted to do that practically, because I just thought I could get it all in one shot. And so I remember getting this big, sort of jar that I filled with water that was just big enough to fit my head in like very, very close. And then I did a back bend over my couch to dip my head and upside down into the jar of water, while I was holding my remote clicker to click the shot as I was taking the pictures. And it was so challenging I had if I had somebody sitting on my feet, so that I wouldn't flip over completely off of my couch, I remember the second my head went and just water flooded up my nose, because when you're at that angle, you can't stop water from going in. And I had to do it two or three times different dunks and to get the shot. I remember one time everything was out of focus. It was really like that's I find stuff like that where it's very physically demanding. It's hard to get your brain on board to actually move your body to do the thing. And so that's just something funny that I thought of because that I just remember trying to get my head out my nose got stuck on the rim of the the edge, and oh my gosh. So that was bad. But something to answer this in a slightly different way that's coming in the future is I'm working on this new series. And it's all about. Of course, it's based in grief as most of my work is. But it's about impermanence and love, and how we can love without ownership based on my experience as a foster parent. And so this work, I think will be the most challenging to date in that I want to use little objects that my kids left behind accidentally when moving on to a different home in the images. And I think that that's going to be very difficult process to confront those objects and to not even there yet to convince myself that it's okay to use them in art, you know, to make a grander point with those things that maybe should be sacred and not shown off to other people. And so it's something that I'm dealing with and struggling with, and we'll see how it turns out.

Angela Nicholson: 43:21

Yeah. But now you you've put out there that you're planning that do you feel that's more of a pressure to do that?

Brooke Shaden: 43:29

Not really, I think that most people forget what other people say. So I'll go with that assumption. But even if I don't do it, I mean, I think that I think that what's important to remember is that even though I have an idea, and I'm happy to share that idea, that idea might just be a stepping stone for some other idea. That's even better. So maybe that thing never materialises, but it's been ruminating in my mind for such a long time that maybe something else will be born from it. So either way, you know, the concept will make it forward somehow.

Angela Nicholson: 44:04

Yeah, yeah. Well, it sounds interesting. I still have so many questions about the first scenario, though. I mean, like, Where Where did you get a jar that size? How did you not drown? And where, mostly importantly, where can I see that picture?

Brooke Shaden: 44:18

Oh, I'll show it to you. I sat in target for ages, just trying on jar after jar on my head to see what would fit. And I remember just I remember somebody walking past the aisle and just staring at me. And then they continued on. And it was, you know, I feel like it was actually a formative time in my career. Because I remember doing a lot of things like that where I was like, Oh, this is a weird thing that I'm doing and people are watching me do it. And then that was the birth of my, my decision. That weirdness is great, and we should just celebrate it and flaunt it.

Angela Nicholson: 44:49

I had visions of you buying a massive jar of pickles or something like that and having to get rid of all those and then dealing with the smell of that. But no, you actually had a clean jar that you could try on in the shop, which is handy.

Brooke Shaden: 45:02

Oh gosh, no, no.

Angela Nicholson: 45:04

Okay. Well, Brooke, it's been absolutely wonderful to speak with you today. Thank you so much for joining me on the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast.

Brooke Shaden: 45:12

Thank you so much. This was wonderful.

Angela Nicholson: 45:15

I really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you.

Brooke Shaden: 45:18

Oh, this was really, really lovely. I'm so grateful.

Angela Nicholson: 45:21

Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. You'll find links to Brooke's website and social media channels in the show notes. I'll be back with another episode soon. So please subscribe to the show on your favourite podcast platform and tell all your friends and followers about it. You'll also find SheClicks on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube if you search for SheClicks net. So until next time, enjoy your photography.