Jemella Ukaegbu: It's Okay to be the First

Jemella Ukaegbu: 0:04

If you have an idea, just go for it. You never know what it's gonna do for you or even do for others.

Angela Nicholson: 0:12

Welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson. I'm the founder of SheClicks which is a community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I talk to women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them, and how they got to where they are now. Hi, Jemella, thank you so much for joining me on the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast today.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 0:46

Hi, thanks for having me.

Angela Nicholson: 0:48

I really appreciate you taking the time out because I know you've only just got back to work after being on what seemed like a really short period of maternity leave. But I guess, as a self employed person taking long maternity leave might be a bit tricky. Yeah, most definitely. And it's funny because I just had baby number two. And I said, after baby number one, I said, my next baby I'm definitely going to have like six to seven months off. That did not happen. Again, it was just three once and I'm back. Oh, crikey. So you've just had your first few days. How's it going?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 1:18

It's going good. It's going good. Just have to organise myself to really like, make sure I'm not forgetting anything good. Trying to get out of the house with two kids at the same time. How much early do I need to leave? Also breastfeeding is as make sure I've got enough milk and I'm pumping as this is our whole calculation for the team, so yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 1:38

Uh huh. And then work as well.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 1:41

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Angela Nicholson: 1:42

Now, I know you studied photography, and you've got a first class BA. But what led you to choose photography in the first place?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 1:50

I would say, basically, when I left school, growing up in especially about within our culture, it was like, you got to make sure you get a job that you're gonna make money from basically. And so it was like a case is that you're going to be a social worker, you're going to be a teacher, etc. So I studied health and social care. And then I actually found that I was dyslexic. So I was like, I am not smart enough to the university. Plus, when you when you do have research, you do placements. And I realised how much time like the teachers and stuff just ended up working on the paperwork, and not actually with the children. So I was out yet it's not for me, I'm not smart enough. So I was like, I always love photography. I bought my first camera on that last week of school because I wanted to, like photograph all me and my friends on our year live and leaving day. So I was like, I love photography. Why don't I just go and study that instead? So I literally ended up taking that route of photography. From there.

Angela Nicholson: 2:44

I read somewhere you were inspired by some of the photos that your mum took when you were a kid? Is that right?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 2:49

Yeah. Yeah, my mum, she always either had the video camera, or she had her camera in her hand. And I just love that my mum has a whole box at home where it's just her in school with her friends. And it's just that history. She has her own archive, basically. And I just love that like sometimes I would just sit there and I would just pull everything out and just like go through things out. 'Mum, why did you have to hairstyles in one?' That's what made me like love photography, in that sense of what it actually does. For us it tells our story like my mum's no longer here, I got all of these pictures to look back on you know, and those stories that she tells me I'm able to tell my kids allow this is where I got my head to hear stuff. You know, is that all of that it's just a one huge box, and for me that was like, 'Wow'.

Angela Nicholson: 3:36

Yeah, it is amazing, isn't it when you're looking at a print of of you know, photograph you don't just remember that day you remember lots of things around it don't you. I know often talk about a picture that I've got from a holiday many years ago and it just brings back the whole of the holiday not just that snapshot of it.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 3:54

Yeah, exactly, it really does. I was even just saying to my husband the other day that there's some pictures that my mum has, I think is in different locations but just because of like the headboard like a picture of us on a bed and that headboard and everybody had a headboard, so I thought I was somewhere that wasn't it's just it just it just yet from just looking at one picture and I think as well combining it with all the video footage actually hasn't lost. And even me just walking around with a camcorder around the house as well. Because I know what you did in the bathrooms like leave me alone in the room where you go with the camera. So yeah, it's. It literally doesn't allow you to really just like see your story. And I think now in a generation that we're in now everything's on our phone, and we don't print nothing. It's either in a iCloud or you know, Google Drives, etc. And yeah, we got it on our Instagram and Facebook but then some of our Instagram isn't for private Facebook private. So even if my grandchild said ' Oh search my name' and Google and see what comes up they might be able to even access anything because everything's kind of like locked away. So my Stories, like, no longer here. So like even all the stuff, yeah, all my projects of in university was all based around family and what our stories tell in our prints and how much of it to how much of it's not true. You know, sometimes my mum, my dad told me a story about a picture and now that's in my head as I'm growing up, and I feel like I was a part of it, you know, all those kind of little things, but especially like, yeah, within this digital world, I'm just about physical print, I need to print everything.

Angela Nicholson: 5:29

Yeah, I was thinking about Instagram stories that kind of trains us that, you know, a picture only lasts 24 hours, and it's gone. Yeah. Which, you know, if you print it, you've got it forever.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 5:39

Most definitely, most definitely. And I think as well, even, I don't know, I suppose how everything's changing now, in a sense of either like how people decorate their home, and everybody wants to be minimalist as well. So, you know, if I go into my grandma's home, there's pictures of us all over the wall. Whereas now, no one really wants to put pictures on the wall. They just want these like fancy, abstract art images. So it makes us not even think about printing it. And as well, I suppose back in the day, like, you know, a mom was shooting at five, you had to print it, you had to print every single picture, even the one where your finger was on the lens, you had no choice.

Angela Nicholson: 6:16

Yeah.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 6:17

Whereas now everyone can be everyone to be selective of what they want to print. And again, because it's on our phone, it's like, how much of it do we actually go to printing is really bad?

Angela Nicholson: 6:27

Yeah, I think once you start printing, you get to sort of make that connection. And you start making a print, we do kind of elevate our digital images that we print, because obviously like you say we shoot 1000s of them. So to select one to have it printed, that becomes then really, really special. But unfortunately, we just often forget to do that. And we really need to get back into the habit. But it sounds like you are in that habit.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 6:51

Yeah, most definitely. I feel like I'm I need to get back a bit deeper into the habit in that sense, because I know just being busy with work and stuff like I ended up like I started printing, all the pictures of my first daughters are in and it's like, we need to carry on and I haven't been remembered to need to carry on again, obviously, like I've got my insect so that I print those at home sometimes. So like I said, you become more selective with the ones that you want to print. And they become that bit more special we, we we create how we want things to look in that context of like, down to the t of that camcorder, print this picture. And in that one and also this one or that one. And then yeah, we become we have more choice. So we create how we want our album to look now with. We didn't we couldn't create it before, it was what it was and you printed it. Yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 7:40

Thinking back to when you were at university or perhaps about to leave university. Did you have any female role models, any black female role models in the business?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 7:49

No, I didn't. You know, I actually I actually didn't. I had, I had a mentor at the time. But she was she wasn't black. She was a white lady. But no, I didn't. So I didn't have anything to look up to really and truly, that I could say like, oh, yeah, you know, being a photographer could work. Or maybe I just, maybe there was, but we're just not in places that we need to be like, if I remember my university library, there wasn't any books about us. We wasn't in any book. So yeah, no. So it was just me going in a whim of, oh, I just want to be a photographer. And let's see how it works. And if it works.

Angela Nicholson: 8:29

Yeah, but it is a lot easier when you can see it. Because then you sort of oh, that person is like me, I could do that as well. If you don't know anybody it does, it's more of a leap.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 8:39

Most definitely, like I said, every time I would like go to workshops or anything like that, it would it will just be me by myself as a black woman, you know, luckily, along the journey, I have met other black female photographers, but again, and my early stages, I can literally count on one hand. And it was kind of like we're all kind of at the same level. So we're kind of like helping each other to kind of get there. But we never saw anybody who was above us in in a higher level of photography to say, you know, oh, well, look what she's done. And we can do that too. It was we're just gonna go for it. So yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 9:15

And so after leaving university or college, how did you set about creating your own business?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 9:20

I've been a photographer obviously for how many years already? Like 12, 13 years? Wow. Yeah. When I left university, I tried to get photography jobs in like, built established photography, industry jobs. And I never had luck, they would tell me like,'Oh, you're great, but I was looking for someone who was more in a digital world and could you know, manipulate the images' and stuff, but I never did that. I kind of like photographed what you see in that sense. So then I was like, I just want to start my own thing. And then I was like, let me just, I suppose at university technically I found my wild why I wanted to do photography in the first place. So then it was like OK. My uni teachers, was like I want you did study your masters, and we want you to do all these exhibitions on all the work that you've done or family stuff. But I was like, that's great, well, then how can I sustain myself finacially from that, in that sense of just doing exhibitions, it's awkward, it's more like there's a project. But if you start a project, and then it's okay, you're going to then put it in exhibition, or you're going to get funding to put these projects on, etc, etc, you don't know if you're guaranteed to get a financial money from it. So that's, I don't know what they will have dabbled into, like family photography and stuff, I could totally go into that, and make my money that So that was family photography, rather than wedding photography way. Instead, so leaving, I was like, you know, what, was gonna register, and I'm gonna go for it. I was living at home. I didn't have any responsibilities at that time. So I was like, let me just dive in, and make the mistakes I need to make. . at that point. Yeah. My first wedding was actually in my first year of like, registering my company and stuff. So I did my wedding in my first year, but that was just one wedding. But yeah, just I just dibble-dabble into everything. And that's it. Because I feel like when you first start, you're trying to find your niche, because you don't know what it is that you want to do. And there's also there's no problem with doing everything. But then if you find stuff that you don't really like doing, is that no, I'm gonna stick to what I know. And, and that's how I was able to, like, narrow it down at that a bit of anything. Then I thought, what do I like, what do I not like?

Angela Nicholson: 11:34

And I think when you starting out, like you say you want to try a bit of everything, but also, you kind of so keen to get the business that you'll just take anything on. And then you sort of if you're you start to gain traction, and then suddenly you're running around all over the place doing everything and just feeling a bit out of control. So sometimes that's when you want to become a bit more niche.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 11:55

Exactly.

Angela Nicholson: 11:56

So how did you get into wedding photography on a more sort of serious basis?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 12:01

Do you know what, I did the first wedding, and then I was like, can I handle this? Because a wedding is that there's a lot of pressure with a wedding. There's no, there's no retake.

Angela Nicholson: 12:12

Oh, yeah.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 12:13

That what you get is what you see on that day, and you just got a flow of it. Whereas when I'm on maternity shoot or newborn shoot, you know before like, okay, baby's not really, you know, working today. Let's try again next week. I can't try again, or someone else's wedding day. It was just trying it and seeing, do I like it, do or not I started off a little like family, my cousin's getting married, or let me photograph your wedding for you. And then it just started to develop and grow. And I think last year I did about 12 weddings, that's the most I've ever done in one year

Angela Nicholson: 12:45

Which is a nice number.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 12:47

Yeah. It was nice. But it was busy. It was it was very busy and hectic. Maybe because half of them I did while I was pregnant and for some of them I didn't even know I was pregnant, so it took a toll on my body. Yeah. In the sense of tiredness. But I still loved it.

Angela Nicholson: 13:01

So I was talking to someone the other day, who at one point was doing 50 weddings a year, you know, good grief. That's a lot because obviously that's probably every weekend. Isn't it? It's a lot. And then you factor in all the processing as well.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 13:13

Yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 13:13

But 12 seems like a nice number. And then I guess you're in a cycle with a with a couple aren't you so you know, they that the first baby comes along. And so you have that the bump and then the newborn shoots and then the next one.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 13:27

Yeah. And that's what ultimately I love about photography as well is the is the journey and the story. So even in university, my projects were on young moms and even my main unit project was documented a month from her pregnant to her giving birth to after the baby. So there's something that I definitely love about photographing the journey. So I love it, you know, clients come in for their bump, and then their babies here. And then you know, photographing the baby going up to their first birthday. Their christening and all those different milestones. Absolutely. Just yeah, love it.

Angela Nicholson: 13:58

Do you get to the point where you're sort of thinking, 'Well, hang on, you know, they're coming up to three now and I haven't had the call' do follow up?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 14:05

Yeah, cuz I stay quite connected with my clients anyway, by like, social media and stuff. So I do I see them I see their baby growing. I'm following up from like, ready and sometimes, sometimes they might not necessarily come back within that first year, but it's when baby number two comes, then they come back again. So even if it's not like, specifically the child that you document for that whole year, is them going on to be number two, and then they come back to you again and you've seen and grown it's like wow.

Angela Nicholson: 14:34

Yeah. So how did you find your first clients going beyond your own family?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 14:38

So when I first started I used to do, gosh, when I first started Instagram wasn't even necessarily a thing. Like how it is now where like everyone I feel like depends on Instagram, as a way to get their clientele in. I was reaching out doing market stalls. I was putting leaflets through people's letter boxes. I was doing like giveaways, I was doing like little like random, random things. And as things ended up saying to me like word of mouth. And then I bought myself built myself up on social media in that sense as well just like I built a presense on there as well. So I'm mainly, yeah, word of mouth on Google SEO to be honest, when I first started,

Angela Nicholson: 15:23

It's a lot of work, isn't it? I mean, like, you know, putting leaflets through people's doors and constantly juggling social media, but it gradually sort of chip away and you start getting your client base.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 15:35

Yeah, most definitely. And I think it's more like even even like for my weddings, for example, I think half of the weddings that I shot last year, ended up being guests who were at the wedding for the other half of the year, because they literally just saw how I was as a photographer, they loved my energy, the last hour was notice that they even were like, Oh, I saw you or yeah, like I show you shooting this person's wedding. So I wanted to get information I want to hire you. So a lot of things are is people also see and how you work as well. Like every time you step out there on the your company's name with your camera in your hand. You're, you're ready, like, I suppose promoting yourself without even realising for that next potential client.

Angela Nicholson: 16:17

I know someone who has a QR code actually put on their, they've got a harness for two cameras, and they actually had the QR code put on the back of the harness so that people could come up and just photograph it at a wedding and get their details. I though it was quite an inspired idea. It's a bit different from business cards, but it's a thought. Yeah, no, that's smart. That's actually really smart. I can't tell you the last time obviously, as well, business cards as well, because there's even there's been parties and stuff that I've done. And people were like, Oh, I still got your business card. And that business card was from our many years ago. And luckily, my number is still the same. But my emails lost access to that email. But yeah, a lot of a lot of it as well as business was business card. But then now when people ask me, oh, God, what is going on that, oh, don't have a Now, speaking of your business, you're celebrating 10 years of business card. It's like you finish it and never went back to doing them again. Because it just, I just found that it was just sitting there wasn't using them. starting your business. So congratulations on that.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 17:15

Thank you.

Angela Nicholson: 17:16

But how do you keep it fresh and interesting. So you're continually inspired?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 17:20

I feel like you you have to not be afraid to make changes. Sometimes you can get stuck in a rut of how you're doing things or, you know, like, for example, I when I started out, I was doing cake smashes cake smashes wasn't, it was very American. So me, doing it, everyone's like, What are you talking about? The child comes and smashes cake. And I'm like, Yeah, I used to have this whole thing of like, attack with males, I used to literally make props. Get my sister to help me that we're very creative people. So it used to be a whole thing that I will do on social media of art with males creating this apps. And come last year, I said, You know what, I don't find the joy in it anymore. Like I used to. And it was me being okay with saying, You know what? I don't do it anymore.

Angela Nicholson: 18:05

Yeah.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 18:06

Like, you literally have to be okay with, do I like doing that? Does it bring me the joy is used to? Or okay, how can I, you know, spice things up a little bit? How can I refresh, it could be, you know, the style in which you shoot, like, I'm literally in the middle of changing the style in which I shoot certain sessions now as well to kind of keep it going of like, oh, that excites me. Because if he excites you, then you're able to provide your clients with a service, because they can just see that joy of what you're able to do. So definitely, like not being afraid to change things, I think we're very much afraid of change. Yeah, I'd been doing something for this many years. I can't change it. Now. It's just like, you know, you have a job. And you know, whether you're a receptionist or you're, you're a doctor or something even, I've been doing this for how many years, I have to say in the same job, I was just speaking to my cousin the other day. And I was like, if you want to change it up, change it up. If sometimes our purpose for a certain thing doesn't have to be for a long space of time, it can be very short time. And after you've done what you need to do can be like, Hey, I'm ready to move on now. And that's okay.

Angela Nicholson: 19:10

Yeah. I think that what you said about your clients can see your enjoyment of situation, I think that's really, really important because they want to have a good time, you know, a photo shoot, however it is, whether it's at the wedding, or you know that the bump or the baby shoot, it needs to be enjoyable and fun. And nobody wants a grumpy photographer who's who's been shooting the same stuff forever. So you know, 'God is another baby'.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 19:33

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I know a lot of people after a while was that if they could do something with their eyes closed, it's like, I don't want to do that anymore. Because I want that challenge.

Angela Nicholson: 19:43

Yeah.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 19:43

as well. And like sometimes it can be good and at least you know you can come in, you're in and you're out and you know exactly what you're doing when it sounds and there's a lot of times where you just want to do that and do a bit more.

Angela Nicholson: 19:54

Yeah, the cake smash photos always make me laugh because I think I just see like, the photographers thinking'oh God, now I've got to clear all this up' and the parents are thinking 'now we've got this sticky baby that we've got to take home', all over the car and basically they've got some nice photos but nobody's very happy about it.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 20:12

Yeah, some of the sessions were literally like the baby will be crying. Like, you know, we, you're you're bringing the kids up with they're eating food at lunchtime and their breakfast and you're like trying to make them stay clean. And then let me bring into my studio like 'Yes, smash cake, put your hands in'. 'Well, I'm not sure'.

Angela Nicholson: 20:33

It seems like a really long time ago that we first got to get in touch because mutual friends in the industry sort of said, 'oh, you know Jemella, she's created a community like you have, you two should get in touch because you've got similar ideas.' What took you from the idea of the UK, black female photographers to actually creating it?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 20:54

To be honest, I think when I did like, the first call on social media in a sense of like, you know, I've been going to these photography conventions and photography workshops and stuff, and I never see anybody who looks like me, you know? And at least you just put a rant out. Everyone syas it a rant, and as far as social media, like, you know, look, I know, like black people are very creative. I was like, where all of the other black female photographers I just out of curiosity, you know, where are we? And then everyone really started responding. Like, I'm here, I'm here, I'm here. I'm here. And I was like, Oh, hey, and then I started getting DMs and messages from people saying,'Oh, I can't wait to see what you've got planned' and stuff. And I thought I was just saying,'Hey', I just wanted to meet up with some black female photographers, you know, go out and shoot and learn from each other, like, have fun and ultimately, you know, being self-employed, I have no Christmas party with work colleagues, I was like 'we could help our own Christmas parties and stuff. And um, yeah, but it was like, everyone was actually messaging me like, 'can't wait, see what you got planned, etc, e tc'. And I was like, you know what, let's start something. I called one of my other black female photographers Tori Lens, about that, 'Look, I've got this idea now'. And she was like,'Yep, go get your notepad plan your whole year, and go for it'. And I was like, 'Okay, let's go'. And literally, it just strated from there.

Angela Nicholson: 22:17

How long did it take you to come up with a name? Or was that just instant? So obvious? Let's go for that.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 22:22

No. So at first it was London Black Female Photographers, because obviously I'm London based.

Angela Nicholson: 22:27

Thinking fairly small.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 22:30

And then I'd like okay, maybe I need to take off London and put UK. So yeah, it was probably in London for maybe two weeks, if that and then changed to UK.

Angela Nicholson: 22:48

When does the UK come off?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 22:49

Gosh, who knows. I feel like I feel like we'll stay UK, we'll stay in UK, but I but we could also we could always branch to different countries and meet others because there are other black female photographers groups, mainly in America.

Angela Nicholson: 23:04

Right.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 23:04

Anyway. So but then again, we connect with them. So yeah, but we'll keep UK.

Angela Nicholson: 23:10

Fair enough. What What obstacles did you encounter in forming the community? Was there anything in particular that sort of gave you an issue?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 23:17

I just feel like, especially as black women we've been taught to play against each other. And it says even as women in general, it's just like, you're like, Oh, well, that person is steal my idea or you know, am I comfortable with and so, you know, it was like I knew that would be like a battle because and I thought back in the community as well. You're just constantly like, okay, how can I put it? We think small, say how I put London, black female photographers, we automatically think small.

Angela Nicholson: 23:42

Right.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 23:42

So if you now meet up with someone who's just down the road from you, you were to think, oh, no, I can't really connect with them because they might steal my idea, etc. So then you kind of get that kind of offers energy of like, do I dive into really get to know this person and be a part or not? So I knew that was always going to be a battle

Angela Nicholson: 24:02

Yeah

Jemella Ukaegbu: 24:02

in starting it. And as well sometimes, you know, I do get messages saying that I'm racist for starting a community of black female photographers. So I do get that as well. But other than that, those are the only two kind of obstacles really.

Angela Nicholson: 24:16

Yeah, that's good. It's interesting because like in forming SheClicks, I had a few people message or say to me that it was sexist. But actually, I've also had a lot of support from guys who were saying it's brilliant and they bought their, you know, they bring their sister or their wife or partner or daughter along and say you need to join this group because you're a great photographer. And you know, I get, there's far more support, and I'm sure there's far more supporters of your group than there are detractors

Jemella Ukaegbu: 24:44

Most definitely

Angela Nicholson: 24:45

but you, you can't help but hear the detractors. Unfortunately, they always, you know, that voice always sort of is a bit disturbing.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 24:52

Yeah. Especially when you go to just that start something new. You've got a new idea and you're like, oh, will it work? Will it not work? And just like yeah, just I start in a biz again, it's like strating a business, like will it be successful? Will it not? You know?

Angela Nicholson: 25:05

Yeah.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 25:06

Do I leave my job to start it? Do I like, do I not leave? You know? Yeah, you're just kind of like scared.

Angela Nicholson: 25:12

And how has the community evolved over the years? I mean, obviously, you admitted yourself that it was going to be an organisation that you, you were going to actually start and it wasn't just going to be London, it was going to be UK, but how has it evolved? Beyond that?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 25:26

It's definitely it's grown, because it was just gone from OK, we're just going to meet up to kind of like, hang out with each other, learn from each other, etc. And then it's excelled. Where, you know, we've had our own exhibitions, which our first exhibition. Yeah, we yeah, we always had a plan that was going to have one, but we just didn't know when they lock down happened. And then we got a call, say, 'Hey, we've got a space, we'll make it happen'. And I was like, You know what, let's do it. Let's go for it. And then it's literally just gone, like from step to step to just being recognised within the photography industry, as well. Being able to offer our community workshops and stuff as well, with people within the industry, portfolio views, reviews, etc, it's definitely grow from just being a social community, to now being a social and educational community.

Angela Nicholson: 26:21

And an interface as well between like, you know, the black female photographers, and camera manufacturers or retailers or, you know, other providers. It's, it's a good resource for everybody, isn't it?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 26:35

Most definitely, most definitely, like a lot of people, which again, we would have never popped into my head people are, are getting hired, you know, through just like our social media page, and people posting and sharing people's work. Like, again, it was, it was never a plan. It was like, Hey, we just want to show show off what you know, the community is made of, and the talents that are here, we want to show everybody. And yeah, it just it each time he does just he's excited to do something else more than I could ever have even imagined.

Angela Nicholson: 27:07

So all the things that you've achieved with the UK Black Female Photographers, what are you most proud of?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 27:13

As Oh, no, because every single moment makes me cry. Every time I go to say a speach, I start crying, like oh my God, what am I crying for? I wouldn't say there's anything specific, or would I? I'm most proud of the growth of where we've gone. And the sisterhood that has been built, in that sense of a lot of people are now really good friends with each other, they you know, like, that's, it's just so lovely to see.

Angela Nicholson: 27:41

Yeah.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 27:41

And for people say, 'you know what, that inspired me'? And that alone is enough for me, like we, you know, I mean?

Angela Nicholson: 27:49

Yeah.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 27:49

That yeah. I think is that I seen everybody's growth and people just coming out of their shell and excelling and celebrating. Everybody. That's what like, yeah, for me is...

Angela Nicholson: 28:02

And believing in themselves.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 28:03

Yeah. Yeah. Well, just Yeah, exactly. I love that. Yeah. Believing themselves. Because sometimes again, like I've got a message today from one of the UKBF photographers, like, Oh, seeing you for the fact that you've reached 10 years like, you're inspiring us girl, and it's like, I never did it to inspire anybody. I was doing it because, one that was my job, that's what I want to do. That's what I find joy in, and you don't realise that someone else is watching. And now where I never had nobody to look up to, I'm doing that for other people. Isn't that Yeah, it's really weird. So that's I love the everyone coming together are celebrating each other and helping each other get to the next level. Really, that's my proudest thing.

Angela Nicholson: 28:40

What are your aspirations for the group going forward?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 28:43

Oh, to grow even bigger, like I've actually gone from not knowing three to over 500 people in the private Facebook group alone. So just for it to continue growing, really and truly, and getting our members out there more and supporting people grow within their photography career, as well as giving them that access to do that as well.

Angela Nicholson: 29:06

Yeah, I mean, the bigger the number, the more visible you are, and the more likely you are to inspire little girls to want to take photographs and to pick up a camera and shoot video or shoot stills and emulate what you're doing. Most definitely. And I just I want to also get UKBFTOGs to a space where, I know I won't be able to carry on doing it for the rest of my life. Like I want to build the foundation is so strong that when it's time to step down, someone else can take over and it can then carry on inspiring and helping other photographers grow to where they need to grow, and as well ultimately, not everybody has to go to professional level. Also want to say that, some people like not all of us want to be pros. Some of us just want to, you know the joy of the camera and have that space to do that and learn things at the same at the same time and just get to where they want to personally get to. And that is also enough. So yeah, I want it to carry on after me and build that foundation is so strong, that it can just keep being a separate so for many years to come, I think that's a great aspiration. How do you find balancing the demands of you know, you've got your successful business and then you've got a vibrant community? How do you balance those two demands and children?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 30:24

It's hard! I suppose now, ultimately, what I've come to realise is, it takes organisation, and also being honest with yourself of what you can do and what you can't do, because the end of the day, we can't pour from an empty cup. I feel like UKBFTOG just soared within the last two to three years, that ultimately, my company took a backstep while I was trying to balance you know, we had an exhibition that Fujifilm House Photography. And it's like, yeah, I was like, all in. So definitely now having, you know, gone and had baby number two, on maternity leave, I've been able to kind of like, stop and fill up my cup again, keep filling my cup. And don't run empty and dry, be honest with what you can and what you can't do. And you know, don't put too much pressure on myself and again, doing things like what really bring me joy. Yeah. Because that will, you know, keep you know, keep me stepping in and keep me going.

Angela Nicholson: 31:26

As demanding as a community may seem, the individuals are all very understanding. So if you say actually, you know what, I just need some time off today. Everyone will accept that everyone's okay about that, they can all identify with that.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 31:38

Yeah, most definitely. That was so good for we're gonna go maternally , I was like, Okay, we're taking a break guys, me and Leonda, like we're stepping back. We have some other members maning in the Facebook group. Even though I kept poking myself in, like 'ooo what's going on? Let me see what everyone's up to. Coz, again, I just love celebrating everybody. That's just me honestly, I just loving see celebrate their success and stuff. And I love seeing people's growth and people growing I'm very much about self growth. So yeah, but it was so nice to be able to say, hey, guys are stepping back and everyone was hey like, guys take that break, use that break, you need that break. So that's what's been like, ultimately, really good on that subject.

Angela Nicholson: 32:14

What advice would you give to anybody, particularly, you know, aspiring black women who are interested in getting into photography, who might be a bit hesitant starting a hobby or a career in an area, which is often seen as not being very diverse?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 32:29

I would say it's okay to be the first just go for it, I'm, very much about purpose and why? If you want to know why you're doing something, why do you want to do this? So you can kinda, you know, know your reasons, because that will also keep you going is always like, you know, when you first start photography, like, you know, you're doing all these free jobs. Whereas, you know, some pros might tell you like, no, don't do free, you know, but you know what, no, go and do it for freem but remember why you're doing it for free? Yeah. So when you're in that position, make sure you're collecting the information that you need to collect. So that now you can use that in your next step. And saw within whatever within your photography career that you want to do, what is it that I want to take from that? What did I learn what was in that environment, etc, ask the questions that you need to ask, so that you're able to really take it in for what you want to do next.

Angela Nicholson: 33:21

I think that's great advice. Okay, so now it's time for Six from SheClicks. And I've got 10 Questions from SheClickers. And I'd like you to answer six questions, please, by giving me numbers from one to 10. So if you'd like to start with your first number,

Jemella Ukaegbu: 33:37

I'll go number one says her birthday is on the first

Angela Nicholson: 33:40

Number one, okay. Right. So this is from Penny. I love your work, do you think up and coming photographers in the black community worry about having a qualification in photography, and if they don't have one, it might hold them back, despite the fact that their work might be very good.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 33:57

I like that one. So I've always said for me, getting a degree in photography was what I personally needed for my journey. It done more for me than just about my photography career, but allowed me to know who I was as a person. Like I said, I'm very much about self growth, but it's not necessary to have a photography degree or a degree in it. I've worked with a lot of photographers who are commercial photographers who have their self taught and that's fine. Well you ultimately need to do is just need to understand your value and you're worse that's where you will get that confidence will say you know what, yes, I'm here and I'm going to charge this price for my art and that's it to know your value and know your worth regardless whether or not you have any form of qualification.

Angela Nicholson: 34:48

Okay, so another number please.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 34:50

Number five.

Angela Nicholson: 34:57

Number five. Do you feel that up and coming black female photographers have better opportunities, support and mentors now than you did? And to what extent has UK Black Female Photographers been crucial to this? That's from

Jemella Ukaegbu: 35:10

I do think so, I do think we have more Philippa. opportunities. And you know what ultimately, I don't think necessarily, it's more opportunities it's the confidence to go out there to take those opportunities. Whereas before, we would second guess whether or not we belonged in that space, or whether or not it was gonna be welcomed in that space. And I feel like UKBFTOG has created that that hub for us to, you know, encourage each other. And I say that, because we're sharing our wins as well, it then allows another person to say, 'You know what, because they did that, you know, what I'm gonna do this time, because I actually might be successful this time'. And if I'm not, that's okay, we go again, and try again,

Angela Nicholson: 35:58

Celebrating success is so important, even when it's something that may seem quite small, because it really does encourage other people. And it also sort of explains a route to something, I think, you know, there are more women and more black women appearing in say magazines, like Amateur Photographer magazine than ever has happened before, because that's an education process, you know, photographers need to understand how to get their images into magazines, you know, you could take the best photos in the world, but if you don't know how to reach out and contact the right people, and they won't get in there.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 36:31

Because a lot of people don't feel like they have access to these things. Or they would have never thought about it even starting UKBFTOG. A lot of people didn't know about these conventions. So me now saying that, 'No, look, we got, we can go here and we can go there, it's like 'Oh, I had no idea'. So yeah, it's not having knowing or being in the spaces to even know that these stuff is here for you to apply for really as well.

Angela Nicholson: 36:51

Yeah. Can I have another number? Please?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 36:54

Number seven.

Angela Nicholson: 36:55

Number seven. Oh, what three items are always in your wedding kit bag?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 37:00

Or I always have a Rotolight were ar my weddings that I shot this year, And obviously my camera of course, the one thing you actually need to shoot a wedding.

Angela Nicholson: 37:15

Yes, that will be good. And presumably lens as well. But is there a lens that is your go to lens?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 37:22

Yeah, my 24 to 70. Sometimes I don't even feel like it leaves my camera, in that sense, it's really bad. I've been trying to like force myself to you know, get a bit more creative, you know, shoot on a fixed lens instead, don't be so like, comfortable with 24-70. Yeah. And yeah, it's only 24-70 and my Canon 5D Mark three, and my Rotolight Neo. Yep.

Angela Nicholson: 37:50

Okay. Okay. Can we have another number then please?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 37:54

Let's go with number two.

Angela Nicholson: 37:58

Oh, I'm glad you asked this one because this question is, you've spoken about your dyslexia in previous interviews, and as a fellow dyslexic, I'm interested know how this has influenced your life and business? And that question is from Liz. You touched on that a little bit earlier.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 38:11

Yeah, I never got assessed for my dyslexia till I was about, just before I turned 18. So I had to learn how I learn and understand how I learn. So even through university where obviously, I thought I was smart enough because of my dyslexia. And then my teacher was like, 'No, you need to go study photography.' And I did. Luckily, I had the most amazing dyslexic tutor. And she would just take me through everything bit by bit. And she really made me understand how I learned even down to, you know, when I read, I feel like the words are jumping out at me. So like, have an overlay that I used to read with, I've got be lazy now, but because, again, I've trained myself, but you have an overlay that I read read with. And I think this is why as I just started to become very honest, and being like, Yep, I'm dyslexic, I feel like we feel that we want everything to be perfect. So you know, typing that email, yes, there might be a typo or error. Or I might think there's a word there when it's really not. And sometimes I might get my clients' names mixed up. Because again, I see a beginning of a name, and it's like it stuck in my head and I can't get it out. And it happens and I just have to be comfortable and okay with that. And I say to them, oh apologies, my dyslexia got me. And I was unable to, do know what I mean? I just had, I just had to really be honest with myself and not allow it to hold me back. And I did do a lot of I started to do a lot of blogging. So that got me really confident, comfortable with writing, as well and not holding back. It's okay not to be perfect. It's fine.

Angela Nicholson: 39:42

Yeah, exactly. And I think, it's not unusual, but it is disappointing that you managed to go all the way through school without anybody spotting that you are dyslexic. So somehow you navigated that.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 39:52

Yep.

Angela Nicholson: 39:53

But wouldn't it be helpful if we all learned about how we learn individually because you know, it's not just dyslexia that can affect the way people learn. So it will be really helpful to discover your best way of learning earlier on in life.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 40:06

Yeah, if only.

Angela Nicholson: 40:08

Okay, so your next number, please?

Jemella Ukaegbu: 40:12

I feel like I'm playing lottery. Okay, I'll do eight.

Angela Nicholson: 40:16

Number eight. Okay. What was the most significant thing you learned from doing a degree that was from Rebecca

Jemella Ukaegbu: 40:23

Learning the strength that I had to get through it. Ultimately, it was a hard journey. For me again, in my first year, I was the only black person in my class, I did get, you know, a lot of things said to me when I was there. So I found it really hard to kind of like, power on through. And luckily it was in my second year had some amazing people join who and my full on support system, because in the second year, I was ready to like pack in. It was my dyslexia, and the racial abuse that I was getting at university, and I was just like, no, I can't do this anymore. And ultimately, the support system that I had, and it was just my strength, and I believe in God. And I was praying every day to get through of like, how am I gonna get through this? I want to get through this. Let's do it. And it was so funny, because in the second year, I was ready to pack in like, I'm completely done. And my friends sat me down and were like, you're not leaving anywhere. We are going to get through this. And we're all going to get a first.

Angela Nicholson: 41:25

Yeah.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 41:25

And again, with my dyslexia I used to like feel really claustrophobic in the library, it was really small. So the best way that I can describe it to you is I felt like books are flying out on me, even though they wasn't. That's what it felt like, I just wanted to curl into a ball. And coincidentally, they bought a whole new library. And it was like glass roof tops. It was nice and airy, so I could walk in there and feel like I could breathe. And we all sat down in our second year, and like ot me, you're not leaving.

Angela Nicholson: 41:51

Yeah.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 41:51

We're gonna stick this out. And we're all gonna come up with a first and literally, we studied our arse off and we all came up with firsts. So yeah, it was strength that literally got me through it.

Angela Nicholson: 42:03

Oh, that's fantastic. What, great story. Well, the end of it's great. The beginning is not so hot.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 42:08

Yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 42:09

So your last number then please.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 42:11

Okay, let's go for number three.

Angela Nicholson: 42:14

Okay, Living the Dream was a super show. And the UK, Black Female Photographers, community exhibitions at The Photography Show always have great work. What are the best and worst things about putting on an exhibition? That questions from Liz.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 42:28

The best thing is seeing outcome. And it, you don't realise how much it's going to impact someone. So even like, again, as we think about starting a photography career, you don't realise on different avenues that you can go in, within photography, unless, you know, you see it in front of you, and you see other people doing it. So I remember the day that all the photographers got to come and view their work for the first time. And literally, it was just a day of tears, like, tears of joy. It was like everybody crying or like, 'oh, my gosh, I can't believe that's my work on the wall'. You know, and I can't believe my photography has brought me here. And it was just like, Wow. It's that, the great part is the impact that it has on the individuals in the exhibition.

Angela Nicholson: 43:17

Yeah.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 43:18

And then the launch and then seeing their loved ones see the work again. And you know, that's another it's just that alone is that all the sleepless nights and all the meetings and everything that you you have to do to kind of put on that project. Seeing that at the end. It's just like, it just warms you to so, yeah, this was worth it. And, you know, everyone just coming up to me and just saying, you know,'because of you were able to have this space and do this work' and understand that I didn't do this for me. I did this for you guys. I just did it so that we could have fun and we could learn from each other. And yeah, that's what's been, that was the most amazing part was it was everyone seeing their work and the emotion that I brought was the style. Wow. Again, don't realise it's an idea that so small, like I said in my speech and a launch like that I did that so small, and can be so impactful. In end, literally, no, no idea is too small. To just say if you have an idea, just go for it. You never know what it's gonna do for you or even do for others. And as I say the hard thing about putting these things on is just a time really, like it's so, especially when you've got a project on it's just that you're on crunch time. And you know, you need to get things done. And this is like what the second exhibition that I put on pregnant, our first ever one I was pregant with our first - in lockdown. But, it's all worth it in the end.

Angela Nicholson: 44:52

Oh, that's fantastic. Yeah, I can entirely identify with what you said about exhibitions and entirely agree with Liz that that, you know, your exhibitions have been absolutely brilliant. So I would love to see more, although that could have an impact on you.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 45:04

Impact on us indeed, my husbands gonna look at me like 'really sure you want to do an exhibition? You don't have to have this exhibition.'

Angela Nicholson: 45:13

Jemella, thank you so much for joining me today. It's been absolutely brilliant hearing from you. And thank you for answering all the questions.

Jemella Ukaegbu: 45:20

It was absolutely my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Angela Nicholson: 45:23

You're very welcome. Thanks for listening to this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. You'll find links to Jemella's social media channels and website, including those for the UK Black Female Photographers, in the show notes. I'll be back with another episode soon, so please subscribe to the show on your favourite podcast platform and tell all your friends and followers about it. You'll also find SheClicks on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube if you search for SheClicks net. So until next time, enjoy your photography