Donna Crous: Do What you Love

Donna Crous: 0:02

On workshops that I've run. I've always had people say, 'Well, I'm not quite there yet. And I always want to say,'Well, where is there?' I don't think we ever reached there. I think there's always room to grow. There's always room for improvement in so many areas.

Angela Nicholson: 0:16

Welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson and I'm the founder of SheClicks which is a community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I talked to women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them, and how they got to where they are now. This episode is with Donna Crous, an award winning food photographer based in Jersey in the Channel Islands. From her home studio, she works closely with brands and PR agencies developing recipes and creating imagery for food campaigns, social media, websites and print publications. Donna has worked on multiple cookery books and her work is regularly featured in photographic and cookery magazines around the world. In 2021, Donna released her own cookery book, A Healthier Family for Life. Hi, Donna, thank you so much for joining me today on the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast.

Donna Crous: 1:06

Hi, and thank you for having me and inviting me to speak. So exciting.

Angela Nicholson: 1:10

Well, it seems like we've known each other for absolutely ages. But I was thinking about it the other day, we've only actually met in person on one occasion. And that was at The Photography Show in Birmingham, in the UK, last year in September, you flew in to do a couple of talks and also because you'd made the final selection for the SheClicks exhibition, which was very exciting. So it was really, really nice to see you, you got to hang out with a few SheClickers, we went out for dinner and had a really nice time.

Donna Crous: 1:36

I know, it was it was a lot of fun.

Angela Nicholson: 1:38

I think it's testament to social media and all the messaging apps and you know, zoom, we've used quite a few times, that has enabled us to connect and form a friendship despite the fact that, you know, there's a like I say, what is it? It's the English Channel between us because you're in Jersey, aren't you?

Donna Crous: 1:55

Yeah, exactly the English Channel. And it's quite far, actually. Not something I'd like to swim.

Angela Nicholson: 2:02

But if I remember correctly, you started out working in banking.

Donna Crous: 2:06

Yes.

Angela Nicholson: 2:07

So how did you move towards becoming a professional photographer? That's really interesting, isn't it? Sometimes

Donna Crous: 2:10

So I started, I originally started in banking, and I left banking to have my daughters because it was so demanding. The work was so demanding, I felt that, we felt that I couldn't serve two masters. So I left banking and kind of just became a full time mum. But I think at the same time, while I was being a full time mum, I was dabbling in a couple of things like I started a little gift hamper business. you do need someone to ask you those questions. You know the And then I learned how to bake cakes for the local home-based store. And then, as I did a number of little odd things like small little businesses that I started, and then when my girls were old enough, I decided that I wanted to go back to work. But I'd lost a huge amount of my skills. So we're talking 20 years now. So I'd lost my skills and my confidence. So then I was then I just had no idea what I was going to get back into. And I think taking those few skills, those smaller skills, which at the time, I didn't think were very useful. And I started to answers, they're quite easy to answer, but you don't ask them sort of focus on what I had already done and what I what I'd yourself, you sort of jog along on a particular path. Yeah, I already played around with, which was the cooking and the need someone to just ask you those pertinent questions every baking. And I decided to start a blog. And I love blogging, I loved writing the the recipes and creating the recipes. And then I realised that I needed to improve the photography, it's one of those things, blogging is a great way to find out what to learn a huge amount of skills all at the same time. And so I decided I needed to upskill on my photography side. And yeah, I think from there, I just realised that I just had this absolute love for the photography side. That's where the passion for the actual photography came from. And I remember a friend of mine's husband, he's a psychologist, so you always seems to ask the perfect question. And he said to me, he was quizzing me about blogging, and he said, 'What is your favourite parts about the whole blogging process? What part gets you the most excited?' And it was then when I said that when I realised that it was a photography, and he said, 'well, then that's what you need to focus on, if that's what you love. And that's what gets you excited, then that's the part that you need to grow.' And so kind of just develop from there. now and again. Well, that's exactly what it was the first time that I'd actually really kind of broken down the whole process just based on the questions he was asking, 'What do I do at each stage?' And then the overall question was, 'so out of all of these stages, which is your favourite?' And I think breaking it down and then having to answer that question really hit home. That that is actually, that's what gets me excited. That's why I do the rest of it. And yeah, I think it's a it's a really good way to do things to check things out as to just break it up and try and try and see which part of it you actually enjoy the most.

Angela Nicholson: 5:06

And at that stage, what are you shooting on, we're using a camera or using your phone?

Donna Crous: 5:10

Early stages, that was probably still my phone. Yeah. And then I went on a food photography course, because there wasn't really much information out there, there was very little available as to how to shoot food. And I knew the particular style that I wanted to shoot, and I just didn't have a clue how I could go about doing it. And I started with going on a two hour food photography course in London, very casual, very relaxed course. And everybody had phones except for one lady. And I was positioned next to her. And every time she took a photo on her DSLR I kept on looking over and looking at the back screen, and I see this beautiful image and I, you know, really frustrated, I couldn't get that on my phone, which then made me venture into, uh time to get a better understanding of lighting. And obviously my equipment that I was using, and and kind of braving the big world of big cameras.

Angela Nicholson: 6:07

Are you still in touch with that woman?

Donna Crous: 6:09

No, I didn't actually make friends with her. She was just positioned next to me. And I would just kind of look over her shoulder and see what was going on on her side. I was way more interested in what she was doing than what I was doing.

Angela Nicholson: 6:21

But I think it'd be really nice if she, you know, she probably doesn't realise how big an impact she had on you, the fact that she was there the only one with a camera

Donna Crous: 6:29

Yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 6:29

inspires you to move on and pick up a camera.

Donna Crous: 6:32

Exactly. And even the course that I was doing, it was just a small little course done by someone who just decided to share her knowledge on free photography. It was very basic, very simple. But I think the biggest learning curve for me in terms of my photography, and and looking around and photographing things. I mean, honestly, it was a quick, short little course, but it just changed my world.

Angela Nicholson: 6:57

And you mentioned that you had a hamper business and you had started making cakes for for a shop. So you obviously quite food focused from the outset

Donna Crous: 7:04

Always. I've always been food focused. I'm a total foodie.

Angela Nicholson: 7:08

And you like cooking?

Donna Crous: 7:09

Yeah, I do. And I was very focused on health. We were dealing with some some health issues with the family. And I realised that we needed to address our diets. And so I kind of went down the world, this kind of path of being a health coach and studying healthy food and healthy cooking and nutrition and that sort of thing, which is why I started my blog, which was a health blog. But what I would really frustrated with was that all the pictures for health blogs are so I don't know they so cliche, it's sort of bright coloured food on a light coloured background. And that's never been the kind of style that ever kind of spoke to me in terms of photography. So I would then try and take all this healthy looking food and put it into a totally separate, you know, I mean, you know, the style that I that I shoot in sort of old world, the old cottagey kind of look which probably don't really go, but it was my they were my photos, I could really just do what I wanted to and just sort of started playing around in that area. And for me, so I so I think that's why I sort of crossed over from going from just purely health focused to getting into the photography and really playing around on the photography side as well, because it was trying to create the, trying to get this perfect crossover of really beautifully-styled images and a healthy recipe at the same time. So it was quite a quite a challenge in the beginning.

Angela Nicholson: 8:41

When you started out, you know, what you didn't want to produce, you didn't want those sort of bright images. You wanted a cosy a darker feel. But did you have any role models? Or was there anybody or any work that you were looking at thinking this is the sort of thing I would like to produce? Yeah. I mean, there were a couple of photographers at the time that I that I knew I wanted my work to look like Eva Kosmas Flores was one of those. And I think there was another photographer Trisha Hayes. I don't think she even photographs anymore. But she but she had a little course that she sold an online course that I bought from her. And you know, just trying to work out how to get that dark photography to actually work. So not shooting, you know, you automatically think 'Oh, dim the lights and block out all the lights', but it was trying to work out how to get the hero or the subject illuminated in a darker setting. So that's that's really the work that had to go into was trying to establish all of those little nuances that go with that sort of dark moody style photography. Yes, it requires very subtle lighting, doesn't it because you don't want to end up with just a massive highlights and then deep deep shadows. You've got to think quite carefully about that.

Donna Crous: 9:52

Exactly. And you can't have you've got to have light on the actual subject without any other surround lights. So it's about kind to me sure that your subject is still standing out in the middle of quite a dark seating, so you can't darken the whole thing otherwise you're so you're so you lose your subject. So those were the things I was really trying to play around with and trying to establish how I could still, sort of, if I took, if I took a picture of a cake, how the cake would really kind of pop out. But then the rest of it was sort of dark and moody and and, you know, yet that's sort of I know that old masters kind of look sort of the old master style painting look to it instead.

Angela Nicholson: 10:33

Yes, you definitely achieved that. And I think it kind of looks cosy as well, in a kind of a warming way. Most people's kitchens are brighter than that, but it feels like a homely, warming, cosy kind of image to look at, I'd say a lot of your work.

Donna Crous: 10:47

I think that's one of the reasons why I was so set on going with that particular style, because I wanted my food to, I didn't want it to fall into a niche look of, 'oh I've just stepped out of the gym and just pureed or blitzed up a green juice', I wanted it to be something that anybody felt relatable to that they could look at it and then maybe go 'Oh my word, actually, that dish was actually a healthy dish', or it's gluten free or dairy free or whatever. And I think that I think that was one of my biggest challenges. In fact, actually, with my book, that was one of my biggest challenges because my publishers were determined that I had to have a certain look. And I was prepared to walk away from the deal, because I knew that I still wanted to stick to my style of photography all the way through, right even to writing a book. And it was just, it's just something that's always kind of resonated with me that I want people to look, look at the images and feel cosy and comfortable and not feel like they have to be in gym way to be able to make that recipe for instance.

Angela Nicholson: 11:50

I will come back to your book in a little while. But how did you go from there, you know, you put all your effort into your photography to make it better for your blog, but how did you then develop that into a business?

Donna Crous: 12:02

Pretty much at the same time, I entered the Pink Lady Food Photographer of the Year Awards, but I was too scared to enter as a photographer. So I entered into the blogging section, which has now changed I think the title of that category is now online influencer or something. So I still kind of stuck to the blogging section. And I submitted a couple of pictures. And next thing I knew two had been shortlisted. I really had no idea the size of the competition and the reach of the competition. And was then invited to the final as one of my images made it to the finals. And I think it was walking through the doors and being served champagne out of the biggest bottle of the biggest champagne bottle I've ever seen in my life, and suddenly struck me just the size and the magnitude of the actual competition. And then from there, a lot of doors just started opening for me, in particularly on the photography side, speaking at The Photography Show, and then later joining up with Nikon, and running food photography workshops through Nikon. And speaking on the stage at The Photography Show, and then later becoming an ambassador. But then at the same time, I'd be working with a blogger friend of mine, and she'd asked for some help on a recipe and then say to me,'Oh, are you a food photographer as well? If that's the case, would you mind shooting my book?' So and she was based in New York. So it all kind of just happened round about the same time where I ended up shooting the book and then being represented in the in the food photography competition. So yeah, all just kind of one of those perfect storms.

Angela Nicholson: 13:39

I think it's very easy to look at it that way. ;Oh, and then this just happened. And then that just happened'. But the fact is, you've made a whole series of steps to get to a point where those things could happen, you know, so you would meet people, you entered the competition, you went to the exhibition, your picture was on the wall, lots of people saw it, your name would have been read out all that sort of stuff. It is a fabulous exhibition they put on and it's always nice to see all the work because they look so great on the wall. And it's you know, it's a big, big thing.

Donna Crous: 14:09

Yeah, there's something so surreal about walking into that gallery and seeing your picture hanging up on the wall. I mean, it's just, fo someone who had never had an exhibition or never kind of, I hadn't entered many competitions, I'd entered competitions at the at my camera club, I had joined a character by that stage. And I'd enter competitions of the camera club, but to actually see your image framed and titled and with other images that are similar and yeah, I mean, so absolutely surreal. But, you know, it's it sounds a little bit cliche to say I planted a lot of seeds in terms of, you know, it took me it took me a while and it took me a lot of making a lot of mistakes to get to where I was it didn't kind of just happen. I photographed every single day I woke up, I wasn't earning an income out of it initially, and I made sure that I treated it as a job. So every day, I made sure that I photographed something so that I would try and learn as much as I possibly could in, in the self-shoots that I was doing. When I say self-shoots, I mean, I wasn't working for a client. So I was just kind of going to my fridge going, ;Oh, I've got a bag of tomatoes, let me see what I can do with that;. And that took time, my the particular style I wanted to shoot in was really hard to try and work hard and really try to try and come to grips with what I wanted, what I what I had in my head, and being able to transfer that into an image. And very frustrating, a lot of a lot of really, really bad images were shot long before I actually even started to put my pictures out there. So I mean, I know sounds like it all just kind of happened at the same time. But there was a lot of build up to that. And there were a lot of seeds that I planted along the way that some took and some didn't. And some grew and some didn't. And yeah, very frustrating time, but at the same time, very exciting and difficult to kind of merge the two together. But that really was how it, how it began,

Angela Nicholson: 16:13

I think a lot of photographers who are going from that transition, you know, or thinking about becoming professional moving towards being professional, they look at their images, and they look at their hit rate. And say 'Oh, I'm not good enough'. But no professional photographer, tells everybody how many mistakes they made, or tells people about the terrible images they captured in the process of capturing that one award-winning shot. And I think that's, that's, that's the difference, isn't it, you've got to hold on to this is my success. So when you were at the Pink Lady Food Photography Awards, nobody put all the other, you know, 10-dozen images that weren't quite right on the wall, they have the one that really works. And that's what really swings it. That's what people get excited about. Yeah, I mean, I was what I initially started shooting for my Instagram. And the Instagram images are so highly curated, and they so selected, and they so there's so much thought that goes into it, which picture goes up to which which picture so that your wall looks satisfying. And you know, somebody lands on your account, and they instantly want to follow you because your walls are so appealing to them. So it is incredibly, highly curated. And I think people need to understand that, that it doesn't just happen that there are, and even now I'll look at a lot of my pictures that might have won awards, and have had really great accolades, and I haven't quite felt that with that picture. You know, so some of the pictures I look at I always cringe because I think, well, it's not perfect, I look at it, and it's just not perfect, yet. It's done very well in other areas. So we can sometimes I know I'm very, very tough on myself and very tough on my, my images. And you know, then I always look at them and think, Well, they're never quite perfect. There's a lot more that I could have done to it at a later stage, if I'd had the chance. So I think sometimes I can be a little bit too harsh on myself. And maybe, and I certainly see that in other photographers, you know, on workshops that I've run, I've always had people say, 'Well, I'm not quite there yet.' And I always want to say, 'Well, where is there?' I don't think we ever reach there. I think there's always room to grow. There's always room for improvement in so many areas. And you know, if we will always just hold off until we're there. We never know when we're going to be there. Yeah. And you know, there are trends, tastes change, as well. So you know, you might be fantastic at one area of photography, but then tastes evolve, and you need to move in that direction. And yeah, find out how to do that improve that and become somebody who leads those trends.

Donna Crous: 18:44

Yeah, you've definitely got to stay ahead of the trends, and you've got to be able to pivot and change. And yeah, I mean, I when I initially started, I think a lot of my my images were really dark. And I've started slowly started to come out of that into sort of a more even toned kind of style. So So for instance, a picture on my book on the cover of my book, I, every time I look at it, I cringe because it's from it was one of my very first pictures, one of my first recipes, and we didn't reshoot it, and the publishers took that picture. So I submitted that picture for the recipe. And that suddenly ended up being the cover of the book. And I'd taken that picture four years before. So it's, you know, and if I had had to reshoot that today, it will be totally different. And so yeah, I mean, my style has definitely changed, my editing style has changed, my photography style has changed, so many different things have changed. But you know, at the same time, you got to appreciate that that was part of that picture was part of the journey.

Angela Nicholson: 19:48

Yes. And it obviously really resonated with the publishers because they put it on the cover and it's it's a different sort of thing, isn't it? It's a recipe book. You want people to look at it and think'Oh', and open it and you 'I wonder if I could make that?' Yeah. When they're holding that in their hands. They're almost holding, because it's a quiche isn't it? Or a flan on the cover?

Donna Crous: 20:07

Yeah, it's a frittata.

Angela Nicholson: 20:08

Yeah, they're almost holding that.

Donna Crous: 20:10

Yeah, there were so many aspects that went into choosing the cover, so I shot a couple of pictures with intention for them to be on the cover. And then it goes in front of a team at the publishers. So they've got a sales team that a sales and marketing team that will choose the images for the cover. And I was so shocked when next thing that arrived as a cover, and that was a suggested cover. And, you know, I was happy to go with anything, wouldn't have definitely wouldn't have been my first choice. But you know, interesting that when put in front of a team of say, 10 people that that would that that's a choice and would not have been my choice was even I didn't even consider it as a cover shot. So yeah, I'm really surprised. But it is interesting to see, it makes it so subjective. And that's, you know, it really is so subjective at the end of the day.

Angela Nicholson: 20:59

So how did the book come about? Did you sort of wake up one morning and think I should do my own recipe book and then set off to look for a publisher? Or, you know, what was your process?

Donna Crous: 21:07

I think when I started blogging, the the holy grail was to write a book. So that was my thing was initially just to start sharing my recipes. And that I think is most food bloggers holy grail is to be able to, to write a book and to have it published, and then working with other authors on the American publishing side. So that when I was talking about The Pink Lady competition, my first book that came through is actually an American author. And she was she she approached me and her publishing house is based in Boston. So I shot her first book. And then halfway through that month, she sent me a message saying, 'I've just submitted another book proposal to the same publishers to Page Street publishers. And will you shoot that one?' So had to go back saying 'Can we deliver the first baby first, please, before we start the pregnancy for the second baby', she was just on a roll and all she wanted to do is just publish more books. And so yeah, so she was like, 'No, I'm not giving you any time to decide, we're literally going to go straight from one book into another', which is what we did, I think we had a three or four week break, and then started the second, the second book. And then, through that same publishing house, I started to work with other authors. So with that, I had insights into the publishing world, I had insights into how a manuscript looks, I'm working with authors and recipe development, which had been doing already on my book, and working very closely with a lot of the authors, not all of them, but with most of them. I'm choosing recipes, maybe the recipes didn't work, going back to the author saying, let's, let's have a look at let's talk about this recipe, it didn't seem to work from my side, ingredients, changes that sort of thing. So I really didn't get involved in working on the publishing side, and then working with the creative directors on the actual whole look and feel of the book at the same time. So I think when I submitted, I always knew that I wanted my own book. And I knew that I wanted a British publisher, because I wanted it, obviously to be locally based. And so I started looking around and I approached, I think, through some book proposals to different publishers. And yeah, and then little, Little Brown, my authors came back to me and said, Yeah, we'd like to chat more. They didn't bite at my initial proposal, they weren't excited about the initial proposal, but they were happy with the photography style, and the style of recipes. So it was more a case of, we had to sit down and decide what we felt would be a marketable book. You know, there's so many cookery books out there. So we had to try and come up with a concept that was original and different, and would make people stop and pick it up in a bookstore. So that was, that was a process.

Angela Nicholson: 23:52

Did you find it easier, shooting for your own books and shooting for somebody else's?

Donna Crous: 23:57

So much easier, I was surprised at how easy it was because I had, I had done a lot of research into writing my own books. And I and a lot of people that I've spoken to a lot of other authors would say how stressful it was. And mine I didn't find so stressful because it was all my own work. Whereas when I'm when I'm working on an author's book, I really want to do the best I possibly can for that recipe, and really make it bring it to life for that author. But at the same time, a lot of the recipes or a lot of the dishes I might never have heard of before. So I didn't even know how they were going to look because bearing in mind, I get a manuscripts and it's got no, I've got no reference images with those. I've got nothing. So a lot of the time I get to a recipe that might be a foreign or an international recipe that I've never heard of, or even know how to pronounce. And I've got to try and Google to see what the finished dish might look like and what colours might be and so so yeah, there was a lot it was a major learning curve, but also very stressful because just to make that I that I did that also is recipe justice is a lot of pressure.

Angela Nicholson: 25:07

you cooked because you knew what you were aiming for. Whereas now, you're gonna enjoy it with your eyes. And it's your eyes that make you want to try cooking it.

Donna Crous: 25:21

Absolutely. And now it's a picture for every recipe. And it's a visual reference of the recipe. So you know, when you know what it's like, when you cook your recipe, you're going to be looking at the picture thinking, 'Oh, how big do I cut the onions?' Or, you know, is when they say, cut it lengthways? What are they talking about, and you try and get an idea from the image. So it is very much a visual reference for the recipe, which, again, brings me into another area of this belief that food photography is fake food. And I think food photographers have got a really bad rep for having fake food, which is a lot more on the commercial side, which I can understand shooting under big lights. And that sort of thing is really difficult. But so they do have to bring in some fake things to make the shoots more easier. But on the research on the recipe development side, and on the recipe book side, I am always contacted to make that recipe as per the directions. So nothing changes, I can't add anything to the image, I can't use ingredients that aren't in the in the in the recipe. There's a whole lot of rules and regulations that that are very different to the commercial side and to the editorial side more so than the cookery book side. Because I'll get a shortlist a lot of the time from the author as well. So for instance, we've got a stack of pancakes, they may say, put some blueberries on top and pour some honey over to again, to honour the author, I feel that it should be real fresh ingredients that, you know, that's part of their recipe.

Angela Nicholson: 26:51

I know, if you analyse lots of types of photography, then it's a lot more work than you might initially think. But food photography always strikes me as a heck of a lot of work and a lot of research because you've got to you've got to have great ingredients, you've got to chop them or cut them photogenicly, you've got to cook them, and then the end products got to look great. And then you got to get your camera, make them look nice. in

Donna Crous: 27:15

It's sometimes in a certain time period as well, because again, you do get quite a short time period or a lifespan or that particular date. Yeah, I mean, shopping. So food photography starts in the shops. So it's finding that perfect red pepper, it's making sure that, you know, if you have pomegranate seeds that they're not pale, you know, you're finding nice red, juicy, plump pomegranate seeds, for instance. So it definitely starts from the shop and making sure that the ingredients are really good looking fresh, healthy, right colours that are going to stand out. Yeah. And then it goes to making sure that it doesn't get damaged on the way through to the kitchen. So I've had deliveries, were shooting the books that I'd order, no, fresh meant or something. And then it comes in as little crumpled up and a little ball. And you know, this is my godness it's supposed to go on top. So it's making sure that it doesn't get damaged along the way and then passing it and prepping it all with the end picture in mind. So every step of the way, is having that end image in mind as to how every little piece of that dish is going to look.

Angela Nicholson: 28:24

You must spend a lot of time and supermarkets sort of inspecting everything, making sure it's exactly the right standard.

Donna Crous: 28:29

I'm the person, people have used to, people people hate, you know. First, in the COVID days where we had to kind of form a trail and start on one side of the of the supermarket and work our way through. And then I was the one who was going through each and every red pepper and people were waiting for me sort of 'come on lady get a move on here. Because, 'just choose a red pepper and go for it.'

Angela Nicholson: 28:52

Yes.

Donna Crous: 28:53

And so yeah, I'm the person that people used to in the supermarket.

Angela Nicholson: 28:59

How important do you think social media has been in your career?

Donna Crous: 29:02

Very, very important. And again, meeting my my blogger friend to sort of really kick started my my career in terms of getting my first contract that was all through that was through Facebook and connecting with her and collaborating with her. And then yeah, certainly on the Instagram side, being able to get my images out there, get people to see the images, meet other photographers meet other people who are interested in photography, and just really just having that community and things like the SheClicks community where you can put your images back into into the Facebook group and get constructive criticism. You know, hugely I think it's a huge part of photographers life in terms of the social media and it's, it's very difficult to get over their fear of putting images out there. But I really think it's a it's a step in the right direction if you can stop to a eyes for constructive criticism, or be just put it out there just you've taken a great shot. Be proud of it, put it out on your Instagram. And, and yeah, you know, just enjoy it and just just love it.

Angela Nicholson: 30:14

Yeah, I think, you know, whether you're starting trying to find a new style, or whether you're trying to perfect a technique, it's always really helpful to get that kind of like, say constructive criticism where someone says, 'Yeah, you're definitely on the right path.' Or 'maybe you should think about doing this that might help it', it really is quite a useful process to go through, I think.

Donna Crous: 30:34

Yes, you need to be careful about where you're getting your advice from. So for instance, SheClicks with a very uplifting, very healthy environment to be able to do that. But there are some groups on Facebook where I don't think the, the criticism is constructive. And so I do think if you are sensitive to it, you gotta be careful about where you were you putting it out. I think camera clubs are great ways to grow your your photography, because you've got to judge and knowledge and knowledgeable judge, your images are anonymous. And, you know, a lot of the feedback, sometimes I wouldn't agree with the feedback that I got, but most of the time, I would take it and run with it. Because I, you know, those judges have a really good technical knowledge of photography. So yeah, I think be cautious about where you're getting your feedback. But definitely feedback makes you grow.

Angela Nicholson: 31:25

And I wanted to ask you about becoming an Nikon ambassador, because I think you were the first food photographer too get that accolade. How did that come about? And how significant has it been in your career?

Donna Crous: 31:37

And like I mentioned, after my first entry into the Pink Lady food Photographer of the Year, they I think The Photography Show got in touch with the organisers, and they needed a photographer to come and speak at one of these shows. And food photography was never really a popular subject. And I think it was quite interesting, obviously, with the with the awards now, making taking centre stage and making news headlines, really brought it to the photography, world's attention, the power of food photography, and the vastness of food photography. So they asked me if I were go and speak on using social media and food photography, that I think was my first topic. And yeah, started talking. So spoke for my first year on that stage. And then Nikon got in touch with me, because the whole way down the line, we always give our camera details our camera make and models. So for the Pink Lady competition, you have to give your camera details. And I think they must have got that through The Photography Show anyway. And they can't get in touch with me out of the blue and said, 'We love your images. Would you mind coming to speak on our stage?' So started by speaking on the Nikon stage. And then there was a big sort of interest in food photography and workshops and Nikon at that stage had their workshops in, they were in London, where were they? They were near Oxford Circus. They had their school, the Nikon school, the building. And so we ran a couple of workshops from there. And yeah, they really turned out to be quite popular. And there was a sudden, amazing interest in food photography, which which was just actually quite amazing to be part of was a it was a wave that was just taking off. And it was just I think it was just really in the right place at the right time as well.

Angela Nicholson: 33:23

You put yourself in the right place at the right time.

Donna Crous: 33:26

I did, I did. I mean, it takes courage into food photography competition, when you don't consider yourself a photographer. But yeah, yeah, you've got to you've got to put yourself out there.

Angela Nicholson: 33:37

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Now, we need to change tack quite dramatically, because there was a point when it seemed like everything was going really, really well. You know, you speaking at The Photography Show you are a Nikon ambassador, you are Rotolight ambassador, your book was coming out, and then you got a really scary thing happened with your health. And obviously, that's made you have to reconsider everything and re-examine your priorities. I know you're very keen to discuss that.

Donna Crous: 34:04

Absolutely. Yeah, I'm very happy and open to discuss it. You know, I think it's one of those things. You can you can have the biggest goals in life, and sometimes there's a different there's a different plan for you. So yeah, I mean, I was literally at the top of that wave and I was loving it. Everything was working out perfectly. And then I was sidelined with the breast cancer diagnosis. And particularly with the book I had to put writing the book on hold for a couple of months while I went through treatment, and surgery and then treatment. And my publishers were incredible. I was really I at that time, funnily enough, I was more worried about when everybody with everybody else was okay than about myself. So I was more concerned about the publishers I was more concerned about workshops that I had booked and booked and talks that I had booked. So I kind of just put my head down quickly went through treatment didn't really give it much thought just treated as a job almost. So it was part of carried on continued with my photography. And yeah, everything just went back to normal to normal after treatment, really simple I thought at the time and carried on writing my book, I had had another, I had had a year's extension due to the breast cancer. And it started travelling with Nikon and doing doing some things with Nikon and then only to have a second diagnosis of secondary breast cancer. So that means that the cancer had travelled from the primary into other parts of my body. So that makes it incurable and it made it so we were dealing with a totally different beast at that stage. So yeah, so everything kind of just ground to a standstill. And I had to really, again, as I said earlier, had to pivot and try and change and focus more on my health than on my actual photography. Initially, I wasn't keen to give up the photography, I thought that I would be able to manage both, but at the same time, I knew that I really had to give myself time to, to process the news, and to work out where I was gonna go from there. So yeah, in general, my photography has slowed down, because believe it or not, it's actually quite physical. So between all the shopping, and the standing and the cooking, and then moving sets around and carrying heavy back boards, I find it just gets a little bit tiring and and maybe a little bit too physical at the moment for me.

Angela Nicholson: 36:31

And how do you manage it now? Do you sort of plan a few days photography or maybe a day, in a certain time period and kind of manage your health around it?

Donna Crous: 36:42

Yes, I'm not doing as much client work because client work is very stressful. And so I've limited my client work. And I've just now decided to enjoy my photography, instead of having the stress of having to work with clients. So a lot of the stuff that I'm doing now, I moved at a similar time we moved to Jersey, so to all intents and purposes, it was an international move, because nobody had ever heard of me in Jersey and I would have had sort of redeveloped my career in terms of being Jersey-based. So it was all sort of at that same time where I decided that I didn't want the pressure of working closely with clients. And I couldn't travel, the intention when we moved to Jersey was that I would be able to travel to the UK and go and work. So I wasn't in a position to travel. And I just decided we've got some smaller brands in Jersey that probably need a little bit of help in terms of their photography, and in terms of helping them with branding. So I've teamed up with a couple of the smaller brands, and I don't charge, I just have fun, we just play around with very little expectations from either side. And yeah, if I'm not feeling well then we don't shoot that day, or they just deliver products to me and I just play around. So I'm working more probably in the product photography side now then on the food side. So it's there's not the whole shopping and cooking and creating. On that side. It's more taking a product and photographing around it. So a lot of that has now also turned more to lifestyle sort of photography. So it's not on a set, it's not using the same using all the props and back boards and all the heavy things. So now a lot of it is just photographing a bottle of kombucha in the sea or something like that. So it's less, what's the word, I think it's less physically taxing for me.

Angela Nicholson: 38:31

It sounds a little bit like you've gone through that process that your friend who's a psychologist asked you to go through a while ago, you know, basically you've broken down what you do, and just decided which elements you most enjoy, which you can feasibly fit around everything else that you need to do and gone for that.

Donna Crous: 38:49

Absolutely. And I think for me, it's all about just not doing what I enjoy and not having to serve the pressure of turning it into a business the pressure of being in a public place and having to do public events has I don't have that anymore. And I'm able to, yeah, just to take what I want out of it and and run with that and there's I've had to gain learn new skills and use new techniques because I'm not shooting in a in a studio with controlled lighting anymore. And I'm you know, I'm shooting bottles where I've got reflections and all these things which I was able to work around when I was doing food or my you know, doing sort of cookery book images where now you know when you've got a product and you've got a particular brand you've got to make sure that that's that the labels clear and that the reflections on a certain place. So again, a whole new learning curve for me working with with particular brands and actually not necessarily in a studio environment.

Angela Nicholson: 39:55

Do you find that continuing with some photography, obviously not to the same intensity as it was before, do you find that actually helps give you some sort of mental release? So you're not actually thinking about your health, they're just getting on with something else.

Donna Crous: 40:07

Absolutely, you know, I always just say it's a form of meditation for me. So when I, when I started photograph, that's my, that's my happy place. That's my special place, being behind the camera and being able just to photograph. And even though I'm not a lot of the time, I'm not photographing for any, for anything at all back for myself, and being able to do the things that that I just that I'm not going to be getting any criticism on. I think that's, that's also quite rewarding and freeing to be able to do that. And especially having been in such a niche, niche niche area of photography, to be able to branch out and learn new things, has been really actually quite exciting. Because I don't have a photography background. I'm not a trained photographer. There's a whole load of different styles of photography and little different aspects of photography that I'm now exploring, which is really great. It's fun. It's like, I'm just I've gone back to amateur and I'm just playing around with with absolutely no intention.

Angela Nicholson: 41:13

That's nice. That's really nice.

Donna Crous: 41:15

Well, it's good. It's nice to play around.

Angela Nicholson: 41:17

So now it's time for Six from SheClicks. I've got 10 Questions from some SheClickers, and I'd really like you to answer six questions, please. So if you could give me a number from one to 10?

Donna Crous: 41:28

Umm, number five.

Angela Nicholson: 41:30

Number five. Oh, this is a good one. This is from Janina. Are there any foods that you really enjoy photographing, but you just can't eat?

Donna Crous: 41:42

Fish? I'm not a big fish eater. So don't don't enjoy the smell. I don't enjoy cooking fish. But I love photographing it because it is always so beautiful to photograph so any seafoodie, any seafood, fish, anything like that, not really my favourite. And so that was always a part of the books of all the books that I ever shot that I would leave to last because as I'm I had to psych myself up to get to that point. But then there were always the best images. And you know, as soon as I you know, I would have a bowl of muscles and photograph that and I would just think why it's so easy to so beautiful to photograph. Why do you put this up until last? I should actually start with it. And yeah, so definitely, I think fish.

Angela Nicholson: 42:28

Okay. All right, can I have another number please.

Donna Crous: 42:31

Umm number seven, we'll do the odd numbers.

Angela Nicholson: 42:34

Number seven. Oh, a slight flip on the first question is, what is your favourite food? Either to photograph or to eat?

Donna Crous: 42:42

Oh, that's easy. Cake. Cake. I mean, cake is just, you can see I love photographing cake. I mean, I do, I do try making healthy cake. So if it's my cake, there'll be a healthier version. But if it's another author's cake, then it's whatever kind of recipe they've given me. But I just I love cakes. I love cupcakes. I love actually anything sweet. I mean, I do like it. I don't eat a lot of it because I just tried to avoid it. But it is it is a sort of a guilty pleasure at the end of the shoot to have a couple of scoops of whatever I've been shooting. I try not to eat the whole lot. The family will generally eat the whole lot.

Angela Nicholson: 43:20

So if you were gonna a treat yourself, maybe it's your birthday coming up and you can think 'right I'm gonna make myself a cake', which one would you go for?

Donna Crous: 43:26

Something with lemon, lemon drizzle, lemon curd tarts. I'm I'm a lemon girl. I love lemons.

Angela Nicholson: 43:32

Just so you know, I'd go for chocolate, just in case you need to know that.

Donna Crous: 43:36

Chocolate is my worst to photograph, by the way.

Angela Nicholson: 43:39

Oh, really?

Donna Crous: 43:39

Your chocolate cake is the worst. It's so difficult. So difficult. It's really hard to get the separation between the layers. And then if the lighting is wrong, you can just look like a big brown blob. So yeah, that's always I always find that that takes me a lot longer than anything else.

Angela Nicholson: 43:57

I always like to challenge photographers. Okay, so can I have your third number please?

Donna Crous: 44:02

And then we'll go for number four. I'll break from my numbers.

Angela Nicholson: 44:06

Okay, where do you get your inspiration for the composition of your food images?

Donna Crous: 44:12

All over the place. I constantly am looking at food images. So between food magazines, Waitrose magazines are great because you just if you've got a waitress card, you can just get it for free. And every month I have to get my Waitrose magazine, Pinterest, other Instagramers other photographers. Colours, definitely the colour of the dish, as opposed to the props as opposed to the background that also just adds inspiration. Seasonal and what what's in season and in terms of what we're making, whatever you it could be Christmas, it could be Easter, but it could also be seasonal in terms of berries and cream for Wimbledon, that sort of thing. So yeah, definitely. And then And then for me, I think, just fresh food, like lots and lots of fresh food is is a big inspiration for me. So being in a market will clear out a food market and finding something that I've never seen before buying it and trying to photograph it and then trying to learn how to cook. Whatever it is. Yeah, food, there's inspiration all around us. We are we are bombarded with food and with food photography, and, and a lot of really great images. We just got to be we just got to see them. Because I think we kind of breeze past them, especially in the supermarkets. And that's because it all just feels like it's it's marketing. But if you actually look at the images in sales, there's some really beautiful pictures out there.

Angela Nicholson: 45:38

Yes, I guess if you're, you know, when you're out, and it's there's something that makes your mouth water to think, 'Oh, I could, say it's a lemon, I could make a lemon drizzle cake out of that.' And then your automatically thinking, 'what plate would I put it on?' You know, and it's about making some inviting, isn't it?

Donna Crous: 45:55

Yep, that's definitely the thought process that goes into this is again, it starts from the market and then to maybe a batch of strawberries and then okay, so what have I got that I can put them into, like, what have I got that I can put on top of it. And you know, just and what's unique because for me, if you've got a bowl of strawberries, if you're paging through Instagram, for instance, and you're looking for a picture of strawberries, you're gonna get a whole load of bowls of strawberries. So it's about making that bowl of strawberries totally unique and different and stand out so that anybody looking at your images, for instance, on Instagram, we'll stop and go, ;Oh, that's an interesting way of doing strawberries. Never thought of that before.' So again, trying to come up with totally unique individual ways of showing something that we see every day that we see around us. There's making people stop and look.

Angela Nicholson: 46:46

Yeah, yeah, it's a challenge. Okay, can we have another number, please?

Donna Crous: 46:51

Number one

Angela Nicholson: 46:52

Number one. So this question is from Liz. And it's what is your first memory of holding a camera?

Donna Crous: 46:58

My first memory of holding a camera was I was in high school. I don't know what you call it in the UK in South Africa, we call it high school. And I borrowed my dad's camera. And I remember being utterly terrified that I was going to do something wrong. But I had this absolute passion for sunsets. So every every picture I ever took was was other sunset, nothing exciting ever came out of it. But I remember it just for me the fear of breaking the my dad's camera I think was was a big one for me. I don't know it just, it just seemed so big and so fancy I suppose.

Angela Nicholson: 47:33

I had a similar experience with your borrowing my dad's camera and you stuck., 'I just can't drop this. Got to be so careful.' Yeah, it's somehow easier when it's your own. But of course, then you've paid for it. And you're worried about that as well.

Donna Crous: 47:47

Definitely. It does make it easier when it's your own and it's not borrowed.

Angela Nicholson: 47:50

Okay, your penultimate number then please,

Donna Crous: 47:53

Ooo, I think shall we go with number six, please?

Angela Nicholson: 47:56

Number six. Oh, now this is another question from Liz. She says, I spotted a cat in one of your gallery images. Is that something that was planned? Or was it spontaneous?

Donna Crous: 48:06

Totally spontaneous, I have the most curious cat, every setup that I used to have, she always used to come and try a sniff everything. And she doesn't eat a single thing of any of my sets. But she's always good to have a good sniff around. And I was setting up I had my camera I was actually playing around with my camera at that stage getting all the settings right and she just put her nose in at the right spot at the right time. And I think that was one of those images where I probably only had two images from the whole thing. But when I was able to actually just capture it just at the right moment so surely spontaneous. And if I tried to put her there, we would have had cat legs everywhere and popcorn everywhere if I had actually tried to create that image. But no, she's she's just very curious.

Angela Nicholson: 48:54

Has it ever inspired you to try to get her in the shot again.

Donna Crous: 48:57

Oh, yes. And I've tried with my dog as well. Yeah, I've tried with both my cat and my dog and ya know, it's when you try and force it, especially with domestic animals. Yeah, it could it could end up very messy and most as so many of my really my favourite images have been spontaneous like that. So it's been once we've got the hero shot and once we know that we've got the the shot for the book or whatever it is, then just have fun then that's what I that's what I love to play around and poor things and cut things and drizzle things and a lot of the time all those bugs hernias pictures are actually the better ones at the end of the day.

Angela Nicholson: 49:33

Okay. All right, so your final number please. And number two please. Number two. Ahh, now you kind of touched on this a little bit earlier. I don't know that you actually do it. But what is the most unappealing treatment you've given food to make it look appealing? You don't tend to use things that aren't part of the ingredients but I know you know, sometimes when you want to make something look shiny or something like that?

Donna Crous: 49:57

Yeah. And if I do do anything It's still edible afterwards. So if it's meat, I'll add a bit of olive oil was a bit of browning, so or Bovril, Marmite, just brush it over, everything is still still edible afterwards so that. What I might do is under cook a couple of ingredients. So for instance, I'm doing a stew, then I'll under cook the vegetables, I'll keep those separate and undercooked those slightly, so that and then stir them through. So just otherwise everything just ends up the same colour if you've cooked a stew, you know that by the time it's finished, all your carrots and your your meat all look the same colour. So just so they stand out and they kind of pop in the picture. And you might get had a hard carrot or or an uncooked pea, too. But otherwise, yeah. Nothing else that I would really do.

Angela Nicholson: 50:51

Do you pop it back in the oven to cook it? So is sort of a you know, a thing you really want to eat.

Donna Crous: 50:57

Afterwards? No, family just have to take it as it comes.

Angela Nicholson: 51:02

Fair enough. It looks great. Just eat it.

Donna Crous: 51:04

I've done enough cooking by that stage. Yep, they want to cook it, they can re cook it. But generally, I mean, it's not that undercooked. So it's just slightly under cooked. It's slightly under cooked, so it's distinguishable.

Angela Nicholson: 51:18

Right. Okay. Well, thank you so much for answering all those questions. And thank you for joining me today.

Donna Crous: 51:24

Thank you so much and those fan questions, so I appreciate everybody sending them through.

Angela Nicholson: 51:28

Oh, you're very welcome. Thanks for listening to this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. As usual, you'll find links to Donna's social media channels and website in the show notes so you can keep up to date with her. I'll be back with another episode soon. So please subscribe to the show on your favourite podcast platform and tell all your friends and follow us about it. You'll also find SheClicks on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube if you search for SheClicks net. So until next time, enjoy your photography