Makayla Jade Harris: Moving Beyond a Hobby

Makayla Jade Harris: 0:02

There's things that photographers that have been in the industry for decades still don't know, or is not their specialty, right? And so your there's always going to be something more that you can learn, there's always going to be something that you could do better. So just having the confidence of fully understanding the client's expectations and then over delivering, for me is what kind of gave me that nudge to just like to just get after it and go out there and, you know, make it a business versus just a hobby that kind of brings in a little bit of money on the side.

Angela Nicholson: 0:31

Welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson. I'm the founder of SheClicks which is a community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I talk with women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them, and how they got to where they are now. This episode features Makayla Jade Harris, a US based wedding photographer, CEO of the print ographers society, and the youngest director of the professional photographers of America Association. Hi, Michaela. Thank you for joining me on the podcast today. Oh, gosh, thank you so much for having me. It's, it's it's been a pleasure getting to know you. And I'm excited to be here. Thank you. So I was thinking back to when we actually met. I don't remember it was at a party at a bowling alley hosted by Fundy software, in January 2020. And we were in Nashville for imaging USA. Seems like a lifetime ago now.

Makayla Jade Harris: 1:23

Yes. Oh, my gosh, it does. It seems like a lifetime ago.

Angela Nicholson: 1:28

Much happened?

Makayla Jade Harris: 1:31

A lot has happened since then I feel like, Wow, gosh, I can't believe that it was that long ago that we first met.

Angela Nicholson: 1:38

I feel a bit like the pandemic years, let's call them that. It's almost like, we kind of extract them from our lives. So we kind of forget about them. And you don't know how you can't remember exactly how long they were, there's just this period where everything seemed to be in stasis, it was just frozen.

Makayla Jade Harris: 1:54

It's so crazy. Because I'm feel like now when I try and run number when things happen. It part of the conversation is like, well, was that before COVID? Or during COVID? Or after COVID? Just feels like this transitionary period of a few years that kind of gotten lost in space?

Angela Nicholson: 2:14

Yeah, I think that's a good way of putting it actually. But as as a wedding photographer, how did you navigate the pandemic, from a business point of view? Because it must have been very challenging?

Makayla Jade Harris: 2:22

Yeah, that was, it was really challenging, uh, for multiple reasons. I mean, I think initially, you know, we were kind of in denial. And so we were just, you know, kind of acting as therapists for our brides of like, everything's gonna be fine. And we'll, you know, move the date a little bit, maybe a month, and everything will be fine. And so we spent a lot of our time just kind of taking on the energy and the stress of others, which obviously starts to get very heavy over time. And then, you know, we went through this phase where it's like, oh, my gosh, okay, like, you know, we really have to accept the fact that this is going to drastically change the way we operate. And my husband and I are both full time in, in the wedding business in the wedding industry at that time, and it was the only source of revenue that we had. So it was it was a challenge. It was something everyday we got up and tried to be innovative and figure out how can we, you know, how can we bring in cash flow? How can we prepare for the future? How can we make our current clients feel valued and loyal, so that way we can kind of, you know, get through all this together. But it was a struggle, it was a struggle, you know, emotionally and, and professionally to get through all of that. And I think that, you know, if I had to say the one to one thing that I can contribute it to is just handy, trying to be innovative and finding different sources of revenue. I'm trying to get past clients to book outdoor portrait sessions, you know, when things kind of opened up a bit trying to get past clients to add on wall or if they didn't initially, or do more album sales, things like that, to just kind of round out the revenue that we weren't getting from, from the events that we weren't photographing.

Angela Nicholson: 4:10

I think as challenging as it was for everybody, when those opportunities came along, and you know, so you offered outdoor shoots, I think a lot of people just welcomed that as a kind of like a return of a little bit of normality and an opportunity to just do something quite positive during a generally quite worrying time.

Makayla Jade Harris: 4:27

You know, it was one of those things where it's like we had nobody really knew what was appropriate or acceptable or the right way to do things and, and we all wanted to do things the right way. But we're also trying to provide for our families and there's not information and the information that is out there is changing all the time. And so I think at that point in time, we were just doing whatever we could to get by and stay happy and be, you know, be be parents that weren't falling into an emotional dark hole. You know, we have two young kids that we also had to make sure you know, weren't Seeing nice feel this downward spiral through such a dark time. And so we were just trying to do whatever we whatever we could to stay positive, and, you know, stay afloat. And I think many people weren't doing that many people were in that boat as well. Yeah, I think it's a good point, you mentioned the kids, because, you know, like, you're saying nobody really knew what was going on, and what was going to happen to try and explain it to them in a way that wasn't terrifying, but also made them wear a mask when they should wash their hands. And all of that thing sort of thing must have been quite tricky, but also kind of protect them from what potentially was threatening your livelihood as well. Yeah, I like to say that, you know, experiencing that, as a family will be one of those moments that our kids look back on as like, you know, being thankful for being a part of that. Being able to see, you know, when you know, when your back's kind of against the wall, how to how to kind of dig your way out again. And you just don't know, right? I think it was just, it was just such an uncertain time. And you don't know how a kid's going to view it. And like I said, that the information is changing all the time. So the conversation changes all the time. So, you know, you just do do your best, but I think it'll be something I know, for me, it's a time that I never thought I would say this, but going through something like that. I'm so thankful for everything that it's given me, and I'm so thankful for kind of the shift that, you know, we were able to make as a family and as business owners as a result of something, you know that that traumatic?

Angela Nicholson: 6:35

Yeah. So maybe we should scroll back a little bit and just talk about how did you actually get into photography professionally? Was it always going to be your career? Or did you go through a career change?

Makayla Jade Harris: 6:47

No, I became a mom. And I was a business consultant. At that time for a small firm, I took maternity leave. And, you know, I wanted to have a longer maternity leave with my first our son, and there wasn't really room for me. So I was actually laid off. And we were in this place where we had, you know, we had a new baby, a new home. And there wasn't really just discretionary income laying around for me. So I had to figure out how to make that work. And I really did not want to go back to the corporate world with a new baby. I had always kind of been passionate about photography, you know, growing up, we did a lot of video recording with my siblings. And I loved the idea of being a photographer. But I knew nothing. I didn't own a camera. It was never like, it was never in the cards for me to kind of build a business as a photographer. But that's kind of what I did. I just I said, Okay, I don't want to go back to work, how can I make money. And I decided to pick up a camera and buy a camera, I think my first camera was like a Nikon D7000. Right, I would just I just went out and when charge like $50 for a photo shoot, I hadn't, you know, learned how to learn my camera settings off of YouTube. And slowly just kind of trained myself through different workshops and conferences along the way, and eventually built it into something that not only became a career for me, but also, you know, I was able to kind of take my husband from his full time job and finance and have it be kind of a career and a business for the both of us doing, you know, photo and video side by side.

Angela Nicholson: 8:29

So from buying your D7000, to actually starting to take money from photography, what sort of time period are we talking about?

Makayla Jade Harris: 8:38

So what's crazy as for me, it's kind of the opposite of the journey that most photographers took, like I had, the business had to come first I was providing for a family, I had lost my job, I thought the business was always the first priority. So I did, I did everything that I could to improve the weakest area of my skill set in order to make more money, right. So initially, it was like literally just learning the functions of my camera, then when I mastered that it was learning the exposure triangle, you know, and so I would just build on that. And every time I needed more money, I would think, okay, how can I get better so that I can be deserving of more money and I would just build on the weakest link of my skill set in order to you know, start to charge and charge more and and that's always kind of how we ran our photography business even even up until you know, a few years into the business of like, okay, we want to charge more for weddings. Well, we need to get better off camera flash, like we can't just be natural light photographers anymore or we need to have you know, better relationships with planners or we need to have whatever it was we're always looking for that weakest link in order to kind of level up our business and provide more for our family.

Angela Nicholson: 9:51

I think that's fantastic. So it's a little bit like you know, used to do you bought the tool, and then you learn how to use it as you went along. But while using it for a business. Did, I mean at that takes quite a leap of confidence. Do you think having a family that you needed to provide for do you think that sort of shored you up and the confidence stakes?

Makayla Jade Harris: 10:06

Yeah, you know, it's funny, because every time someone asks me, are we I, you know, kind of talk through this, it's like, Wow, that must have been so scary for you to just like, go out and, you know, try and charge money right away with like, you know, not having a background in photography, or full education or a degree or anything like that. And, and it's quite honestly being under qualified. And it's like, yes, it was insanely scary. And I think that fear fueled me to over overcompensate and overproduced and really wow, the clients because you feel indebted. And so that is a little bit scary to kind of go out there and put yourself out there in charge when you know, like, you don't have that background, or you don't have all the knowledge that you could have or should have. Um, but at the same time, What's scarier is like not being able to pay your mortgage or not being, you know, having to go back to the corporate world that you, you know, absolutely needed, and were depressed in. So I think for me, it was just like, you know, having, yes, it took a lot of confidence, yes, it was scary. But if I, if I continuously strive to be better and better than, you know, the$50 that I was making, I was delivering more value than even from the very beginning.

Angela Nicholson: 11:18

Fantastic, I think that's a great attitude, I often think through, you know, what's the worst that can happen. And actually, in your situation, if you didn't earn money, then the worst thing is, you might lose your house, you won't be able to feed the kids, you know, and it's just a horrible downward spiral. But if you do some photography that somebody isn't particularly happy with, then, you know, the worst situation there is where they are a bit cross, or you have to do extra editing, where you do another shoot, you know, so that the consequences are slightly less. And I think it helps sometimes just really analyse what the important issues are.

Makayla Jade Harris: 11:49

Yeah, and I think just having the attitude of over delivering, you know, there's things that photographers that have been in the industry for decades still don't know or is not their specialty, right? And so you, there's always going to be something more that you can learn, there's always going to be something that you could do better. So just having the confidence and fully understanding the client's expectations, and then over delivering, for me is what kind of gave me that nudge to just like, to just get after it and go out there and, you know, make it a business versus just a hobby that kind of brings in a little bit of money on the side. Oh, there's nothing that quite perks you up, like, a really happy client is delighted with what you've delivered really makes you want to drive forward and do more. Yeah, for sure. And for me, in the beginning, you know, I came into the industry at a time when like this, shoot and share was just all the rage, right? So sending out galleries was just the very standard form of delivery. And for me, I knew right from the beginning that I needed a better experience for the clients, I needed to make the most amount of money possible. And so right from the beginning, you know, even in that first few first few years, I think I was only a photographer for maybe one to two years before I decided like, Okay, I need to go into IPS, or, you know, I don't really even remember what the term was at that time. But doing these one on one, post session sales, because I can't be out every night photographing at sunset, I can't be gone every weekend photographing weddings, I need to be able to make more but still be be the primary caretaker for my children. And so I think having that experience was actually a way to over deliver for my clients. So being able to see their reaction to the photos, being able, it was almost like I was good, I was getting a critique after every session. So I would show them the photos, I would be there with them, I would see their reaction, I would get the feedback on like, this one is amazing. I love this. And I would know whatever they didn't, I wasn't their favourite, right. So I was able to kind of use that as a business, a business critique and a portfolio critique and still get paid for it. And so that experience really helped me launch into kind of being more of a sought after a more desired photographer, because we weren't providing an experience at that time that had kind of faded away. You know, it used to be the standard form of delivery to, you know, to present your images to your clients, and then it kind of went away and no one was doing it anymore, because there were easier ways to deliver photos. And, you know, coming back through this resurgence and having a one on one time with my clients afterwards allowed me to have that personal connection. It also when when you're showing your clients in that emotional environment, they become more attached in their value perception of the photos is increased. So they feel better about investing in you as a business owner. And so they're more likely to go talk about you, they're more likely to spend more with you because of that experience in that relationship that you've built with them. For those not in the know IPS stands for in person sales. And I think it was really interesting because I've heard it spoken about as a tool for you know, my

Angela Nicholson: 14:59

Getting more money through promoting your products, your sales. But also, now you explain it is a fantastic learning opportunity for the photographer as well. Because like you say, if the client doesn't like an image or just moves on, you've got the opportunity to get a bit of understanding about why not or just sort of learn what are the preferences of various couples or clients?

Makayla Jade Harris: 15:21

Yeah, and there's a lot of under underlying knowledge that you gain to, you know, I learned very early on that, when I think of when you're a newer photographer, and you're just like, click, click, click, click, click, and something's working, you're like, you don't want to leave it you you're like it's working, I'm gonna keep going. But when you take that into a sales room or in a presentation environment, it has the opposite effect, you don't need a million of the same, you need to have that variety, you need to keep moving, you need to keep trying new things, because that's what they're going to buy, they're not going to buy images that compete with one another, even though when the time when you were photographing, and at the time, like it felt like it was perfect, they're not going to want 17 of the same style photos. So you really have to learn, you know how to have variety, how to how to pull out emotion, because the emotional photos, the authentic photos are going to be the ones that they end up buying more of, it taught me how to use different lenses because I wanted to sell, you know, bigger wall art. So I wanted to you know, I started my business in Boston where the most condos are like 300 to 600 square feet. So I wanted to sell big wall art in small spaces. And the best way to do that is to have you know, the subjects be a little bit smaller, maybe not the main focus of the portrait and so being able to see what people were buying and learning that in the in the presentation environment in the sales environment. I was able to kind of apply that to my shooting style and just kind of make it got cold full circle and you'll continue to have higher and higher sales and become a better and better photographer.

Angela Nicholson: 16:56

I hope you'll excuse us interruption because thanks to Fundy Software, we have an exciting easy to enter competition with two one year licences for Fundy Designer up for grabs. Fundy designer is perfect for emerging pros and advanced professional wedding photographers, because it enables fast and professional album design coupled with wall art creation, and client sales management. Listen to the end of this episode and then email me at podcast@sheclicks.net before the first of September 2023 with the answer to the following

question: 17:24

Where did Makayla's family store their photographs when she was a child? Now you travel all over the place, don't you for your for your weddings. Do you still do the impersonal sales actually in person, you know, physically there or do you do do the online more now.

Makayla Jade Harris: 17:48

So on I have been photographing weddings for the past 11 years, we started our studio in Boston where we did everything in person. Actually, we started doing it out of our living room. Then we moved into studio, then we moved to New York where our kind of our our client base was all over the place. We had people in New York City, we had people in Boston, we had people that were destination. And so we had to learn how to do vert, the same experience because I refuse to go back to just giving the gallery. So I had to learn how to deliver the same experience in a virtual environment. And this was pre COVID, when zoom was like something you had to teach people how to use right, it wasn't a household name. So what's crazy is now it's so much easier to do that because Zoom is just another app on on everyone's device. Everyone knows how to use it. There's not a learning curve on these like virtual video platforms. And so we were able to it was a struggle learning how to do it virtually at that time. COVID gave us this kind of blessing in disguise where it taught the world how to how to do business virtually. And so as a result, we have been able to we had taken all of our sales virtually even before that time. But now this is actually my last year as a wedding photographer, because I transitioned to running a company that does virtual sales for other photographers. So now we have a sales team that gives that experience for other photographers. And so you don't have to have a studio to do it. You don't have to meet with clients in person, you can still deliver a similar experience even even without, you know, having that face to face, I guess physical interaction and do something online via zoom or Neil virtual platform. So that's another example of how your business has evolved over the years. Yeah, it? It sure has. I mean, I didn't think you know, just kind of going not to not to back the COVID talk because I think we're all sick of it. But that is one of the things that you know, I was able to gain from you know, from that time period is I wasn't photographing as many weddings. I had been asked by other friends in the industry like,'hey, you know you do so well, these virtual sales, I really need money, I'm photographing weddings, can you help me out? Can you do this for me.' And so this new business was really, really, I guess, grew out of that out of the desire to help other photographers make money, when we were all kind of struggling, I don't really know how to do this, because that's how I had built my my initial business. And especially for wedding photographers, there's just so much opportunity in album sales, I think a lot of wedding photographers are afraid to do sales appointments with so many images are such a big gallery and I'm so we were able to just start by helping a few of our friends do that. And it just kind of snowballed into the, the, the opportunity that we were able to create for them and the success we were able to create from them to, to kind of grow that and do that for, you know, kind of photographers all over the country, I was going to ask you whether you find that you still have to convince couples to have a printed physical album or wall art. But actually, maybe we need to expand that do you don't need to explain it to photographers that they should be offering those sorts of products every day, every day of my life is spent talking to both and those sides, you know. Photographers are, we are emotional, creative beings, right? And so it's very easy when you're trying to change anything about your business. It's scary, right? It's very scary. And when you're trying to change something this drastic, right, you're going from just delivering a gallery to asking your clients to invest 1000s of dollars, or they've already invested in your services can be really scary. Often times, you can lose clients, sometimes if you're not communicating effectively, you can get upset clients. And so having to, you know, having those conversations with photographers of like, Yes, this is this is scary. Yes, this is a change, change is hard, you need to remind yourself of why you're doing it. Right. Why are you doing this are you You know, for me, it was a number of reasons it was I was dedicated to having a better experience for my clients, I was dedicated to being the best possible photographer from knowing nothing. And I was dedicated to providing a lifestyle for my family that didn't rob me on my time with them, right. And so that, you know, when you kind of put all of those reasonings on the wall, this is the best option for that. And so having a conversation with all of our we call them our partners, our partner photographers on a daily basis of like, just remember why you're doing this, because anything that's worse, it is going to be hard. And there are going to be hard times and there are going to be times when you feel like you're you're messing it all up and you feel like you're doing it wrong. And the easier way would just be to go back to the old ways and just send them the gallery, it never asked what they think and hope that they buy something. And, and yes, that's easy, and it failed. But it's not rewarding for anyone, it's not rewarding for your clients, it's not rewarding for you, as a business owner, it's certainly not rewarding for your family or those that you love and want to spend time with you. So having that conversation and helping helping those photographers kind of see, it starts before they book you right. So when you're speaking to your clients, you speak to them through your marketing and your your language and your branding. And that that conversation needs to happen. Before they even book you from the moment they land on your website, from the moment they engage with you. Whether it's at, you know, from an album, or a piece of wall art that they've seen from a friend or just your you know, showcasing those experiences, the reveal appointments, the sales appointments, putting that out there, letting people see what you do, letting them see what's different, and why it's why it's better, why it's why it's valuable for them. That's kind of where that conversation needs to live to begin with. And then it really has to be ingrained and embedded in everything that you do. Because clients are going to just how photographers like to go back to what save clients are going to want to go back to what they know. And right now as an industry, you know, we've kind of taught them that the most common form of delivery nowadays is is an online gallery that can just sit there as like an insurance policy of like, you don't have to you know, you don't have to do anything with these photos. Now they'll just sit there and they'll just be there when you're ready. And it's really doing a huge disservice to our clients and and their families because they're not able to, you know, relive those photos and feel that joy each and every day from seeing them in their lives.

Angela Nicholson: 24:32

Now, you spent what you say 11 years of your life developing yourself as a photographer taking better and better pictures, developing your skill sets, you know, so you can shoot in a wider range of situations. How confident are you that you're going to be able to walk away and work with other people's pictures help them make more money through selling wall art or albums and not actually produced them yourself?

Makayla Jade Harris: 24:55

Yeah, so that's a that's a really great question. And I think it's something that photographers stumble upon or allow them to be a roadblock, allow it to be a roadblock in their own business as well. You know, we hit so many photographers that are like, well, people will never spend 1000s of dollars on my work, like, I'm just not there yet. And it's like, I mean, I was selling 1000s of dollars from trash images that I barely knew what I was doing right from the beginning, it's not, we don't have the right to judge what clients are, we don't have the right to judge what clients are willing to sue invest on their memories, like we don't really have the right to say like that moment in their life is not valuable enough to be on their wall or that moment, because we're just looking at it from a technical standpoint, we're not looking at it from their eyes. And when you start to look at it from their eyes, you'll see like, and maybe that's the benefit of starting to do IPS. So early was I was able to see like the photos that I was most proud of, were not necessarily the ones that they were by. And I was able to kind of dissect that and say like they wanted that they wanted that photo, because of the way the mom was looking at her even though it's cropped weird, and the exposure isn't perfect, right. Or they wanted that photo because it made them feel really beautiful about themselves. But it had nothing to do with the fact that I accidentally chopped their feet off, right? It was kind of like this learning experience for me of like, people, we don't know what they value, unless we look at it from their eyes, and then kind of drop the act of like, this is a competition print or this needs to be a perfectly executed image. And when we when we start to view it from that lens, then all of a sudden, we see our work as something way more meaningful and way more valuable. And maybe it does give you a little bit of confidence to actually charge more, or actually, you know, ask for ask for the purchase or do the do the in person sales or whatever you might be struggling with. But we have partners now that we sell 1000s of dollars, and they've only been doing it for you know, maybe a few years or, and then we also have partners that have been doing it for decades, photographing for decades, their couples are spending, you know, hundreds of 1000s of dollars on their wedding budget, and they don't value the album and they maybe don't upgrade anything. It's really just, it's really just dependent on that person and what they value and it has a lot less to do with and I don't I don't want to say that it has nothing to do with it. Right? Obviously, we we have an obligation to create well executed work, right. But at the same time, I think photographers just get so caught up on, you know, these self limiting beliefs, these limiting beliefs of in the self deprecating beliefs, I was like, Well, I'm not good enough, my work is not good enough. I have so much more to do and so much more to accomplish, but you're really just getting in your own way. And you're getting in your clients way of investing in the things that are going to bring them joy, right? Again, just being able to see them and relive them every day on their coffee table or on their walls. So I guess it's you know, it's about forming those connections with your clients and understanding those sort of little moments that happen at an event. You know, if you're a wedding, you might be photographing a couple but there's something going on in the background. And they're gonna love that when they see that. It's it's picking up on those little things as well, isn't it? Yeah, thank you now that I think it's knowing your clients, it's taking the time to listen, more than more than just speaking at them. It's asking questions, and figuring out what what they value, why they're hiring you why they came to the first place, what milestones are trying to preserve what personality traits they want to, you know, they want to encapsulate and taking that and turning it into something that is completely priceless. Because it's, it's not about the product or the paper that it's printed on.

Angela Nicholson: 28:49

Yeah. Okay. Well, I think it might be a good time now to go to the section that I caught six from SheClicks and I've got 10 questions from some SheClickers. And I would like you to pick six numbers. So we'll start from one to 10 If you could just give me a number.

Makayla Jade Harris: 29:04

Okay, let's start with three.

Angela Nicholson: 29:06

Three. Okay.

Makayla Jade Harris: 29:08

Okay, my photographic style. And a unique is I had to describe it is clean, emotional, authentic. And I really try and nail it in camera. I don't do any editing, I use AI for everything. I barely touch it beyond that. When I'm photographing a wedding, I call during dinner or cocktail hour or you know, not not a time of day when they don't need me right there. In May, I might have my second shooter go out and capture, you know, some candids of whatever's happening during cocktail hour. Well, I go ahead and I call through my photos, and then I submit them to AI at the end of the night and then it's done and I don't have to spend hours going through it the following weeks, I just I try and nail it at the time of the wedding, even sometimes if it takes me a little bit longer in the moment to just, you know, dial it in. So that way, I don't have to kind of lose enthusiasm on sitting in Lightroom or Photoshop editing for hours or weeks beyond that.

Angela Nicholson: 30:20

Do you use an AI package to help you with the culling?

Makayla Jade Harris: 30:22

I don't um, but I should, right? I haven't, you know, I think I've gotten so fast at doing it. Because I'm doing it on a wedding day, when there's so much going on that I just kind of have this leg motion that I can kind of come through really quickly. In the past like, and this is probably years ago, when it when those types of technologies first came out, I was I noticed that there were certain things like certain family combinations that were removed or certain things so it ended up being more time consuming for me to go back and find the images that were missing, that it was to just kind of do it quickly myself at the wedding. But I think it's probably come a long way since then. And I probably couldn't check out some type of AI calling as well.

Angela Nicholson: 31:06

But I think it's what you said about you know, sometimes it's quicker, because you've got a sense of 'I know, I took a really good shot at this particular point of the wedding'. So you really want to get it and you're in the zone. So you can just click click, click 'Oh, there it is', you know, you find the right one, just click

Makayla Jade Harris: 31:19

Yeah, exactly. And it's, it's top of mine as well. So if you're doing it on the wedding day, you it's fresh in your mind, it's not like, you know, for me, if I've even let it go a few days, sometimes I totally forget or you start to mix in busy season, you start to mix weddings together, and you can't remember which one was which. So I like to do it all on the wedding day when remember everything happened and what was meaningful to the couple. And you know, all of those moments that I know, I'll need to highlight and maybe pull out for the album design. So if I get it all done, then then it's faster. And then because it's top of mind.

Angela Nicholson: 31:50

I think it's funny that you mentioned weddings, sort of not so much blurring together, but just getting a bit lost in them. You know, we've cut the cake, haven't we? No, no, that was that was yesterday. Different wedding!

Makayla Jade Harris: 32:01

Yeah, exactly. Especially on some of those weddings that you know, you have double headers or you know, multiple weddings in a weekend. And it's like, Oh, my goodness. And the last thing you really want to think about doing is editing them or calling through it. And you think like, oh, I'll just do it later. But I've learned from experience, I know myself well enough to like, just get it done. Otherwise, you'll be putting it off forever.

Angela Nicholson: 32:25

Yeah, you'll thank yourself at the end of the day, or the next day. Okay, so can I have another number from one to 10? You did three?

Makayla Jade Harris: 32:33

Let's try that as number five.

Angela Nicholson: 32:35

Okay. What are the kinds of features that you look out for at a wedding venue? So do you have like a, you know, if you see a fountain that right, that says I've got a definitely a shoot by that?

Makayla Jade Harris: 32:45

Oh, wow, that's an interesting question. Okay. Um, so I, I've been doing this for over a decade now. So I like things to be, you know, I've gotten to the point where I really look for a way to make make the day as easy as possible on myself, my team and my couple, but also, you know, challenge myself enough to stay excited about the work I'm producing, right. And it's kind of this like, weird dichotomy of like, having a recipe and knowing, you know, kind of how to get what you need to get those safe shots, and then kind of pulling yourself, pulling yourself out and challenging yourself, I would say if there's features I'm looking for, like when I'm kind of location scouting, I really, I'm usually drawn to like interesting architectural elements. So I really like utilising staircases or alleyways, or something that kind of gives an interesting architectural element that helps me frame my couple. So that way, I can kind of create an emotional, authentic moment, but the image has complexity because of the different architectural elements that are that are incorporated. Yeah. And you know, well, you don't want to follow a recipe, I guess, if clients have found you through your the images on your website, and there's, you know, particular set of shots that they like, that's why they've come to you so that, you know, if they are we've got a venue a bit like that, what we'd really like a shot like that, you know, you've got to deliver it, haven't you? Yeah, I think that's another thing that photographers kind of think too much into. And I think it's really just like, an ego thing or something that you're trying to compare yourself to other photographers, because your clients don't care if they have the same photos as the other people at that venue because their friends are looking at the other people's wedding, they're looking at their wedding. And so I think we allow ourselves to get in our own way of like, oh, I can't reproduce the same images at every venue or I can't, you know, have the same set recipe I need to it's just, it's creating more work for you. It might even lead to upset clients because their expectations were what you shot at the last wedding and now you're not delivering what they thought they were going to get. Because that was what they saw on your website or the galleries that you shared with them or the albums that you showed them. And I think really we're not thinking about our clients best interest when we make those decisions. I think we're thinking about our best interest what the rest of the photographic world is going to think if we reproduce the same shots, I think it's important to challenge yourself. But I also think it's important to just put the client, you know, if you're getting paid for an event or something like that, you really need to put the client's needs and desires first and, and their expectations first. And I think a lot of times that is reproducing some similar work at the same venue. So could have another

Angela Nicholson: 35:23

number, please. Okay, let's

Makayla Jade Harris: 35:25

go with eight. Number eight.

Angela Nicholson: 35:26

Oh, what was it that made you realise the importance of providing an heirloom to families you work with? So you know, essentially your images or a print? Yeah, I

Makayla Jade Harris: 35:35

have a few. I had a few kind of early on memories of clients. Now, again, I send my motivation started from like, a business perspective, right. And it had to, I wanted to make the most amount of money possible. And the best way to do that was to provide a better experience to my clients and get them to want to invest in these products afterwards, right. So it started from a not so glamorous place of like, I need to run a freaking business, right? But in that, I actually had these these experiences with my couples that I was like, Oh my gosh, like, I didn't realise that that's what this was doing right? Moments where, you know, I had a couple I had a bride come in, and she had seen her engagement photos. And she said to me, I have never loved the way I looked at my photos, I always hate photos of my photo being taken. I never love the way I look. I love these so much. I don't know what you did, whether it was posing or lighting, I don't know what you did. But I love the way I look in these so much that I want to see this every day, I want to see myself like this every day. So like, I know, it sounds silly, but I want this photo on my desk, and I want this photo in my living room. And, and that to me was kind of like this lightbulb moment of like holy crap, like, it's so much bigger than just the money. This is actually impacting people's lives. And, and then that's kind of when I realised I need to do this for myself, like I need to be, I need to have this this joy or these experiences in my own life, I started relating to my my clients stories of that, like, I also you know, have, you know, self in looking at my photos and looking at myself in photos I have, you know, in self esteem issues, or, you know, my husband and I are working in business all the time together. So like, there are days when I'm like super frustrated and like, then I see the photo of us, you know, on my desk with our kids at the beach, and it's like, okay, you know, relax, like it's not the end of the world. And so I started kind of giving myself these, these little these little blessings. And that's kind of where it grew to like, wait a minute, guys like this is not just about a business model. This is about how we're impacting people's lives.

Angela Nicholson: 37:46

Yes, very, very powerful. I think a friend of mine had a boudoir shoot, I don't know if you have those very much in the States, but she had a boudoir shoot. And she said afterwards that she felt it was something that should be provided by the National Health Service because she felt so good after it when she saw the pictures. You know, she just felt empowered and more confident. And I thought that was that was really really interesting thing.

Makayla Jade Harris: 38:10

Isn't that so crazy? I mean, I think I've only done a handful of boudoir shoots for our for brides that we're interested in, it's never been something that I specialised in but for me seeing the transformation of someone come in like very nervous than not, you know, unsure of what to do. And then by the end just leaving looking, looking and feeling and speaking like a whole different person. It really is it really is a gift. So that's, that's I've really liked that that it should be. It should be part of the mental health plan. I really love that it's true.

Angela Nicholson: 38:47

Okay, so can we have another number please?

Makayla Jade Harris: 38:50

Lets go with one. you

Angela Nicholson: 38:52

Okay, right. So actually, this is a bit of a two parter. So I'll I'll tell you the first bit first on your website you say you will never influence the world by trying to be like it Carmen would like to know how you make yourself different from anything else that you've seen around you. How do you set yourself apart?

Makayla Jade Harris: 39:09

Wow, these are these are deep okay, I love this. Um, I think that being different and standing out is actually less about ourselves and less about us and more about how we engage with others and how we listen and we value others and so I think that for me, my work is not necessarily stand out on you know, my website is not necessarily stand out my my personality is not necessarily stand out. But the way that I'm able to make people feel by asking them the right questions, getting to know them bringing out those emotions when I photograph them, making them have you know, feel something about themselves. Is is how it is how I like to stand out is I like to be remembered for impacting them and not necessarily standing out for my own personal trait.

Angela Nicholson: 40:06

Okay, that's nice. And the second part of the question is, what advice would you give to new photographers starting out in their business? Now? How do they find uniqueness in a world which is already quite diverse.

Makayla Jade Harris: 40:17

So I think that one of the most powerful things that I ever did when I was starting out was to stop looking. And I said, this sounds so cliche, because everybody says it, like stop looking at your competition, you know, focus on you. But truly, the more you visualise where you want to go, and what that looks like, and you zone out, and you just tune out, and you turn off all the other noise of what he's doing, or what she's doing, or what they just photographed, or their new gig, or what the guy's got going on, it just gives you so much more power to be fully dedicated and committed to your journey. And that's where the real creativity and the real beauty in the realm of magic happens, because you're so tuned in to what's right for you, and what's on your path. That that was those magic moments was a creative idea has just come because you're in such a good place. When you're spending all your other time comparing yourself to what everyone else is going has got going on, you tend to create what everyone else is already doing. So it has a reverse effect. You're trying to stand out by looking at everyone else. But in reality, you just end up being like everybody else. But when you really turn it internally and consider what you've got going on and where you want to go. That's when that's when you start to you know, really stand out in a better way and be on a better path for you.

Angela Nicholson: 41:39

I think that's a really good point, actually. And it's reminded me of something you said at the outset, were you saying you realised that you needed to learn how to use Flash, because you couldn't rely on natural light all the time. And I think that is a point where photographers can really start to take control because suddenly you're not at the mercy of the sunshine or whatever shade you can find, you know, you can control the light and really create the images that you want. You can make them look natural, if you want, or you can make them really dramatic, but you are in control.

Makayla Jade Harris: 42:03

Yeah, for sure. I think I mean, there are so many tools and you know, gear these days is just crazy. You can over invest you can under invest. It's it's one of those things, but I think I think that it could get you could get carried away, right? And you want to learn the things that you need to learn. But you don't want to necessarily spend time. So for me, it was always about just figuring out okay, this is where I am this is where I want to go what what are what's in between that I need to learn or do in order to go from here to here. And and that was just one example of that. You know, I wanted to be more of a high end wedding photographer and I knew if I wanted to shoot bigger ballrooms, so I could charge more I needed to learn how to how to not just bounce flash, you know, or how to not just rely on natural light and so it was just kind of like a problem solving technique for me of like I want you know, I'm an I'm an an entry level wedding photographer and want to be a desired sought after, you know, high end wedding photographer. Well, the photographers up here are shooting in ballrooms that I have no idea how to produce work for how do I figure that out? Okay. And then once I can figure that out, what's the next step? And so yeah, I think I've always used like, gear and lighting in that way of like, how does it fit into my, my fat? Okay. Okay, so your fifth number is our let's do two. Okay, two, polar us, too often. Our photographs live on hard drives and on phones, how do you how would you advise somebody to move away from that? What formats or products should they use to help them get their images into the real world? As I mentioned, the way that we have this conversation was with our clients is through our marketing, right? Um, you know, it's, we're trying to attract a very specific type of person, we're trying to attract the person that wants this. And then we're trying to kind of help them see how to invest in that even more. You know, I like to use the example of like, there are IKEA customers, and there are Restoration Hardware customers, and maybe in the UK, those are different. I'm not sure how, how that translates, but for, for us, you know, an Ikea customer that shows up on a pottery barn or Restoration Hardware or high end furniture store website, they're immediately going to know that's not for them, they don't have to see $1 amount they don't have to see a price tag. They don't have to see anything. Just an imagery, the language the branding the colouring alone, within the first few seconds of seeing that they're going to no that's not for me, I need to go back to the the DIY situation right? And the same is going to happen for someone that's looking for an elevated white blood, you know, high end experience. They're going to show up on IKEA and the colouring, the branding, the messaging, the dollar signs not even involved. They're not even gonna say that's not for them. We have to do this in our own branding and marketing when we're trying to attract a specific type of client. And it starts with showing them a different end product. Right? Right now we show them you know, we're also guilty of showing them these beautiful portfolio images all over our website. But then they're only going to want beautiful portfolio images, they're not going to see it into the finished, the finished state, the album's that the man and trade boxes, the wall art. So if we start by showing that, and this is what I do, right, you're basically saying, This is what I do, I take beautiful images that belong in your beautiful poem, right. And you showcase all of these images, your beautiful work, but not just as a JPEG on your site, you showcase it in a print box, or in a video 100 header of wall art hanging on the wall, or some clients flipping through an album, you know what, here's our joy, or whatever that is, you're reconditioning what the clients going to expect from you. And so automatically, you're going to have this kind of polar reacting, you're either you're either going to pull people in, and the people that are pulled in, are gonna be saying, Oh, my gosh, like, I need that. I want that. Like, I remember looking through my grandma's album, or you're going to turn people away that just want to do it themselves. And that's okay, too. But I think that that that messaging starts there, and digital has now have become part of life. So I don't think it's fair to just discount them or to just say, you know, that thing that you want to offer to your client. But the way that I approached digital's is yes, there, you'll get the Digital's their backups, they're just backups in case anything happens to this. But the real value is in a tangible product. And when you're kind of like, I don't want to say dismissive, but when you kind of reframe it that way of like, No, this is what matters. This is what's important. Let me tell you why. Let me tell you a story about this client, or let me tell you a story about my own personal life. Or let me tell you a story about why this is actually better for you. And the digital's Yeah, fine, like you'll get digital backup, some you know, whatever you purchase, or you'll get digital backups of you know, everything in the album. However you structure that. It's it's kind of shifting the conversation and showing them that the real value is in the printed stuff, you know, the the stuff that they're actually going to look at, and that the Digital's are just it's just a backup, in case they need to reprint something or whatever. Yeah. And what about for enthusiast photographers who aren't working with clients, but they've got a collection of, of images that they've built up over the years, how would you advise, they start sort of moving towards actually getting pictures printed, I think the strategy is kind of similar. I mean, it's different in that, like, you know, it's not a specific person, but really just showcasing that what you do is not just creating beautiful imagery, you're creating beautiful works of art that deserve to be hung on walls or in people's homes. And so showing that either on your website, or social media or in you know, like a Shopify or an Etsy account, and having it be, you know, marketed as a tangible good, and not just a digital item will help kind of shift the focus. And then, you know, in terms of selling that, I've seen even portrait photographers or wedding photographers that have created kind of a print shop on their website that showcases, you know, travel photography for sale or animal photography for sale, things like that. I also think there's a lot of like, Airbnb groups, I know for myself, we own an investment property that we Airbnb, and I don't want to spell that with photos of necessarily my kids or myself. And so we look for photographers that are, you know, course photographers, or, you know, fine art landscape photographers, and we'll, we'll invest in that work. It's photographic art, but it's, it's still on our walls. So you could consider kind of, you know, reaching out to those outlets as well.

Angela Nicholson: 49:00

Yeah, I think it's always good to have some sort of endpoint in mind for your photography. I mean, obviously, taking the photographs can be the enjoyment and itself, but it's really nice to evolve them beyond just popping them on your hard drive and people seeing a very pixelated version on on Facebook. And what I've advocated in the past is you have a folder that you perhaps just call 'Print', or something every now and again, you put some of your favourite images in there, and then you maybe wait until one of the labs has got an offer on and then you get some printing done. And then we'll end if you put those up in your house in your home, then have a dinner party, because there's nothing quite like having your friends around and they look at your pictures on the wall and they make some comments. I've been very lucky recently I've gone to a few exhibitions where I've seen the images in advance in digital and then you go and see them actually on the wall. And that's what makes you stop and look you know you can see images flashing up on a screen you think well that's really you know, that's really interesting. That's that's really good. But when you see a print, you know you stand back you go closer, have another look you stand but you turn to the person next to you and have a chat about it. And then you move on to the next one, I think that there's a lot to be said for giving your work that you're most proud of that kind of treatment.

Makayla Jade Harris: 50:13

Yeah, I agree. I think that, you know, I think we again, as photographers, we're kind of behind the computer, we're seeing our photos digitally so often, and it's just so rewarding seeing it in print, because it looks better, it feels better, it almost becomes three dimensional. There's so much you can play with with different paper styles and different ways to kind of display your photos. One of the things that we started doing recently for our, our wedding partner studios, that we're selling for is sending out physical teasers, right? So like, it's just become the the wedding industry in the teaser world, and the social media world has just become so inundated clients are expecting, you know, same day edits are expecting a teaser photo on Instagram, they want to tick tock real or whatever it is. And it just it becomes so loud. It doesn't really do anyone. It's just a it's like a bragging right? I guess so. Yes, I agree. Like that's, that's great for marketing and things like that, but the real value is in the print. So it could cost, if you're a portrait photographer, or a wedding photographer, it cost like 30 to 40 bucks to send, you know, a print box, when boutique packaging with like eight, you know, five to 10, eight by 10 prints to your client after a wedding as a surprise gift for them to see the quality of the photos versus what's posted online, that's going to help them want to invest more in the pages in their album or the wall or that goes in their wall because now you're giving them a taste of how much better it is when it's actually physically printed. And, and so I think you're 100%, right, like putting things on the wall, getting the printer and just experiencing them and letting other people experience that will help you sell more in general.

Angela Nicholson: 52:02

Yeah, um, you and I both know, Andrew

Makayla Jade Harris: 52:02

Yeah, it's so crazy, that it's something so Funderburg, the founder of Fundy Software, I don't know if you've small and just goes such a long way. In you, you're 100% Right, ever been out on a shoot with him, you know, he does a lot of like seeing first of all, we work our butts off as street photography, he has a little Fujifilm Instax printer photographers, you know, we're we, you know, we're always in his pocket. And he'll take a shot of somebody like, you know, get chatting with them, take a photograph, and he'll give them the print and the expression on the person's face when they get that, you know, they're so pleased. And it probably means he doesn't have to an email the picture to look so pleased that they've got their print, but I've never heard of anyone doing that at a wedding. But I think that would be a really nice touch. Because you can, you know, like us, you know, while you're after you've done your culling or whatever, you maybe send a couple of prints to the printer and just give them a little print take away, it'd be quite nice. trying to over deliver to the clients, and we're wearing a million hats and, and oftentimes, we don't really get to reap the reward of the impact that our work has had. And so being that, you know, it is a gift that you're giving to your client, but it's also a gift that you're getting not reacting back and feeling not reward, I was like, wow, like, I make an I make a difference. Like I had an impact on that person's life and, and that print is gonna go on to live with them, maybe even after I'm gone, right. And that's just it's, I think it's important to, to, to embrace those moments because it's hard. It's hard running a business, it's hard. What we do is hard. And so I think it is it's really nice to have those rewarding moments that to help keep us going.

Angela Nicholson: 53:46

It really is. Okay, so your last number, the last question, please.

Makayla Jade Harris: 53:51

Um, let's go with 10.

Angela Nicholson: 53:54

Okay, so Oh, this is this is quite pertinent. What is the first print you remember seeing?

Makayla Jade Harris: 54:00

Gosh. So immediately, when, when you said that question, the first thing that came to mind is, when I grew up, where I grew up, at the top of our stairs in our family home, my mom had, she called it a Deacon's bench. I'm not sure if that was like a religious thing, I don't really know why it was called the Deacon's bench, but it was kind of this like, it was, it was an a chest, a bench that had like a folding storage, you know, in it. And in that was it was full of prints. None of them were organised. It was just little prints that, you know, back then were taken on, you know, how the film had been developed. And you just throw it when you throw it in the in the in the Deacon's bench. And when we were kids, one of our favourite, we didn't have cable we didn't have we lived in the country, we didn't have like television or internet at that age. Um, you know, we didn't have any of that. So, um, one of one of the games that we would play is we would open up the Deacon's bench, and we would literally reach in and pull something out, pull out a handful of prints, and just either laugh at how steady we looked when we were babies or how funny our dad looked when he was that age and, or make up stories, you know, and we would just make up stories about what was happening in those prints and, and so it's not something in particular that comes to mind, but it's almost every single like all of my sensory emotions are coming into play when you say that. It's like, I remember the top of it was so heavy, it would take two of us two of my siblings, like get it open. So we open it up and then you never wanted to close on your fingers. That was like one of the scariest things and you open it up and just the smell of the printed paper from inside the bunny. So that's one of my favourite memories and having this box full of like family photos and reliving that with my siblings.

Angela Nicholson: 55:59

Oh, that's really, really lovely. And I think it kind of taps back to some of the whole of the conversation we've had while you've been talking about business. Actually, it's all about capturing emotions, and you know, helping people remember special events. And just, you know, family photos are so important.

Makayla Jade Harris: 56:16

Yeah, it's crazy to think like how, how this generation of children are going to have those moments together, you know, are they going to? How is that what is that going to look like? If you're not printing family albums or not printing vacation books are not, you're not bringing it into the tangible world? What will that look like when our kids have those moments with their siblings? Or their kids? You know, is it? Is it going to be on a device that's extinct? Or is it going to be you know? If so, is it going to pop up like as a hologram? And in our I don't know, we don't know what

Angela Nicholson: 56:50

Maybe

Makayla Jade Harris: 56:50

what that's going to look like decades from now. So, you know, having a way for me having a way to preserve that. So that way our kids do get to have those moments that their siblings or they do get to have those moments with their kids is super, super important to me.

Angela Nicholson: 57:08

Yeah, so really interesting thought. So it Makayla, it's been an absolute delight speaking with you, thank you so much for joining me today.

Makayla Jade Harris: 57:15

Oh my gosh, this has been just so awesome. I probably got carried away but you were speaking to all my favourite topics. So I'm really, I really enjoy those conversations. So thank you so much for having me. And thank you for all the beautiful questions that you guys brought to the table. I really, really appreciate that.

Angela Nicholson: 57:33

Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. I'll add links to Makayla's social media channels and website to the show notes so you can keep up to date with what she's up to. I'll be back with another episode soon. So please subscribe to the show on your favourite podcast platform and tell all your friends and followers about it. You'll also find SheClicks on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube if you search for SheClicks net. So until next time, enjoy your photography