Rachael Talibart: My 15-year Transition from Solicitor to Fine Art Photographer

Rachael Talibart  0:00  
And somehow, there is this voice in the back of my head that just said, look, you've said you're gonna do it. So just do it. What's the worst that can happen? No one buys anything. So you don't need to tell people, no one bought anything. Just do it, you know? So I did it.

Angela Nicholson  0:20  
Welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson. I'm the founder of SheClicks, which is a community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I talk with women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them, and how they got to where they are now. This episode features Rachel Talibart, a former London solicitor now photographer, who's most widely known for her dramatic fine art images at the sea, with prints in galleries in Europe and the USA. She also leads photographic workshops, writes for photography magazines, and has produced several monographs. 

As you will probably notice, I had quite a bad cold when we record this one. 

Hi, Rachael, thanks for joining me today.

Rachael Talibart  1:00  
Hi, Angela. It's really, really nice to be here. Thanks for asking me.

Angela Nicholson  1:04  
You're very welcome. I'm really excited about these new podcasts. It's great to speak to so many women in the photographic industry about their experiences. I'm aware your first career was as a solicitor, and you went through a career change to become a photographer. And I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about that. And what convinced you that photography was the right career for you?

Rachael Talibart  1:24  
Great question. Yes. So the first thing I should say, which I think is really important is that a lot of their interviews with me and films and things miss out a big chunk of time, between me leaving the city and me going pro as a photographer, about 15 years, it's hacked. And so because that's kind of boring for the story. So it can look to people as if I made this huge, brave leap from a full-time legal career, to being a full-time photographer in one go, which isn't true. And I think it's really important to emphasise that because it can be a bit demotivating for people, they think I could do that. So I didn't I had 15 years in between finish my legal career when my second child was born, my daughter, because I felt I wanted to devote more time to the kids. And because frankly, I was bored at work. And then for 15 years, I raised my kids, I went back to university did two more degrees, which was great, kept the brain going. But absolutely threw myself into raising a family and I loved it. I feel that was a real privilege for me to be able to do that. But during that time photography, which had always been a passion, since my late teens, just became more and more important to me as a creative, fulfilling experience or hobby. And then of course, after doing that for many, many years, getting more and more serious about it, I became aspirational, started to sell stuff. So I would say I was already passively semi professional. Before I took the big leap in 2015 to go see if I could make it as a career. It was looking back I see that was probably a luxury for me that I was able to do it. So gradually. Would I have done it? If I was in a different situation? Maybe not. I think it might have been too hard for me. I don't think I'd have had the courage to make that big leap that sounds so brave. 

Angela Nicholson  3:27  
When you said you did a couple of degrees. Were they anything to do with photography? Or are they completely different?

Rachael Talibart  3:33  
They were a very, very tiny bit to do with photography in that the first of those two was English literature BA with the Open University. And you were allowed to do a tiny bit that wasn't on your major. So my major was English literature, and every course was English literature. Except you could do this tiny course that wasn't and the Open University I think they still do it I'm not sure had a new course then x. This is many years ago on digital photography. And I'd been analogue off or right up till 2008. I was analogue. And then my husband bought me a digital camera for Christmas without asking me and I must admit, he must have thought my reaction was poor to this gift because I was snooty about it. I just thought there is no proper photography, which was rubbish, of course. And so then I thought, well, I need to really get on with this and stop being so silly. Come on, you know, 21st century Rachel, get with it. So I did this course with the Open University. I think it was three months and it came with Photoshop Elements six. So we are going back a long way. And of course, I'd never edited a photograph in software before it developing to me was a messy wet process. So It was a huge I'm not, you know, like most people of my age. I'm a digital immigrant, not a digital native. So it was a big, big steep learning curve for me. But I loved it. And along with that, a people in my cohort had a Flickr group. And I had no idea about things like Flickr, what the heck's this photo sharing online, and I got sucked in and became obsessed. It was a lovely group, really supportive, very diverse group of photographers, all in a similar situation to me, and it was lovely. And yeah, down the rabbit hole I went.

Angela Nicholson  5:38  
Did you ever think about going back to your previous career? Or, you know, once you sort of stepped away was that that, as far as you're concerned? Oh, yeah,

Rachael Talibart  5:47  
My God. You know, people have stress dreams? Everyone has stressed dreams sometimes. And other people might dream about sitting exam they haven't revised for or giving a presentation when they're not ready on a naked or whatever pair of weird dreams people have. My stress dream is always and still having to go back to the city. 

Angela Nicholson  6:08  
So you were glad to be free.

Rachael Talibart  6:10  
I was I mean, I don't wish to sort of completely dismiss that career. It was really, really useful. I learned some incredible soft skills that I use all the time. And I met some great people. And it paid very well, which was nice at the time. But it wasn't a perfect fit for me psychologically.

Angela Nicholson  6:30  
I was just going to ask you whether you had learned any transferable skills with that career? Because it's amazing what you pick up along the way tonnes?

Rachael Talibart  6:39  
Yeah, I mean, learning about it. No, I was a lawyer, not a businesswoman. Learning you do learn some business skills. You learn about client care, you learn about professionalism. You learn about communication, you you just you learn integrity, if you didn't already have it, right, you learn how integrity applies in the real world. And all of those things. Now I'm using every single day.

Angela Nicholson  7:07  
Those really good. I think, you know, if you go to school, you go to university, you sort of you learned from your parents and everyone around you how to behave generally. But nobody actually teaches you the in work skills until you're at work. And then you realise, you know, there's a certain way to answer the phone or to give someone a call or send an email and stuff like that. It takes a while to learn it. You don't necessarily think about it. 

Rachael Talibart  7:29  
Yeah, absolutely. Right. And you don't really realise you're learning it at the time so much, because you're concentrating, you're thinking I'm, I'm learning how to be a lawyer. And you don't realise that actually, some of the core skills you're learning are much have a much wider application, and will be skills you'll have for life.

Angela Nicholson  7:49  
Now, you mentioned that you went professional in 2015. Was that that's a very definite date. Well, I suppose a definite year. What was what was the prelude to that? And what was what made you sort of say, right now I am a professional photographer.

Rachael Talibart  8:03  
So I think the word professional is used quite broadly these days, which is cool, I don't mind. But for me, professional means that you are earning a living from it, not that you're picking up some money here or there. So I didn't really consider myself professional when I was what will it say semi-pro, I didn't use the word professional for myself at all, I didn't even say I was semi-pro. I was just making a bit of money to defray some of the costs of fly my obsession. So but the decision to so the decision to go professional to actually see if I could make a living from photography was definitely a watershed moment for me. And it came at a time when I had a big decision to make because I'd finished my MA, I did an MA in literature as well. And it had been, I'd been told that my dissertation could form the basis for a PhD thesis. And that my topic was, you know, I found a topic that no one else had done on Victorian literature, which is quite hard, because there are no new Victorian literature books. So and there are ever more students. So they're always, you know, finding a new topic. It's harder and harder, but I've been told I'd done it. And would I like to come back and do a PhD. And when I started the AMA that indeed was my objective that I wanted. It was a stepping stone to doing a PhD. But during the course of the AMA, which I did part time because of the kids so it took me two to three years, photography had become more and more a part of my life. And I had found by the end that although I'd love doing the AMA, I was relieved that it was over. And I thought right I will take a little bit of time, and I will not commit to the PhD yet. I And I will just throw myself into photography just for fun and see how it goes. And so I did that for a few months. And it felt so right. It just felt so right. Every time I was doing the photography, and I was enjoying, I realised that I was actually enjoying it way more than I'd enjoy doing the Masters even though I'd enjoyed that. And then I went on a masterclass in Venice, with Michael Levin, so I don't know if you anyone listening will know of him. He's a Canadian photographer. And the was organised by a workshops business called motion capture Jonathan crutches business. And I'd actually been booked to go on that a year previously, and then, at the last minute, had had to cancel because my mother unfortunately suffered what turned out to be a fatal heart attack. So I had to go and be in the hospital with her for that weekend. And I'm very glad it did, obviously. So this was postponed by a year. And it came around in April 2015. And I went to Venice. And the masterclass was interesting, Michael talked about the business of being represented by galleries and selling fine art, if we must use that term photography and all of that, and there was also opportunities to go out and make photos. And in the back of my head the whole time, though, I was fully absorbed in the masterclass this, shall I do the PhD or not, I need to make my mind up was in there, just rattling around in my head. And on the last morning, the group went out there was fog, which is lovely in Venice, went out to photograph and I, I love people, I love being in a crowd. I love being with my clients. And I love I used to when I went on workshops, enjoy that atmosphere. But when I'm actually making photos, I find that I prefer to be alone. And because I know Venice very well been there a lot. I just went told them I was going took myself off to somewhere else entirely where there was nobody. And I'm just did a log exposure, I was a very simple photograph of some mooring bollards and everything smoothed out the snow landmarks. But while I was making that long exposure, you know, you, you've got to wait, right? And it was so peaceful there. And I don't know why. But it was just the moment that the decision, I made the decision. I thought, You know what, this is what I want to be doing. I don't want anymore to be sitting in the coffee bar writing my thesis. I want to be out here doing this. And I'm gonna go for it. So then I got back and I sit I saw like, and I said to Jonathan, will you mentor me? I'll pay you lots of money, because it's not cheap. But that's okay. You get what you pay for. So he said yes. And I said, My objective is to be the best photographer I can be. And if I can make it as a career as well, that would be bonus. And he said, That's a great objective. I'm glad you put it that way around. And I then worked with him. Well ended up working with him for about a year and a half. But it was only six months before I started making a living. So I would say that it was the right decision.

Angela Nicholson  13:21  
Fantastic. I can actually picture you running back to the workshop meeting point, acting like you've had three espressos. And being very excited because sometimes these these decisions do kind of just come to you don't really don't necessarily as a as a steam train, but kind of like a graduate like the mist clearing in Venice, perhaps you know, it's just, that's Yeah, that's great. So exactly right. And it's really nice that you, you went on that workshop and you gave that yourself that space and time to think about photography, but also it kind of allows other things and thoughts to come in absolutely right? How important was the mentoring to you from either a technical point of view or from perhaps just that kind of support point of view,

Rachael Talibart  14:06  
it was really important, but not from the technical point of view. Because I already had the technical skills, because I was a definitely an enthusiast already. And that means for me someone who really knows what they're doing with the camera, as well as other all the creative stuff. So Jonathan didn't really need to give me technical support, which he knew because he'd seen me on on workshops in the past. But what he did do was he he was rigorous about this and I am now with my own mentees, it making me go away and look at tonnes and tonnes of work by contemporary and also past photographers working in the sort of gallery market who aren't necessarily active on social media. So it can be quite hard to access that sort of inspiration. Because you know, we can see lots of folks to us on Instagram or whatever your social media is of choice, but it's not curated for us, we have to curate it for ourselves. And sometimes that's a really hard thing to do. And some of the best photographers out there now who are selling through galleries and working in that area, which is the area that interests me. Don't do social media. I mean, there's so beyond that they either made their name before it was a thing, or it doesn't float their boat or whatever. But there is out there an amazing body of work that I just wouldn't see if I relied on Instagram. And Jonathan every, every time he would send me assignments, he would include the first assignment was a list of websites to review. And they would be these amazing photographers. And of course, I didn't always like, everyone, that would be ridiculous. You know, if it's our, you're not going to please everyone has to be a bit more pushy than that. So, you know, I would go away, and I'd look at this work. And then he would require me to write down my reactions and why. Why is so important, isn't it? So? Why do you like that work? What is it about it that you like, why don't you like this other work? What don't you like about it? And you doing that I didn't even consciously realise what was going on. But over time, every time I did that, I accumulated this internal visual language. That because I wasn't just looking at one or two, I was looking at tartans. I wasn't at risk of plagiarising anybody. What I was able to do, though, was even subconsciously draw on this new visual language that I was learning. And I think now I can look back, and I can't think of any one photographer who massively influenced me, but I know for sure that the, the accumulation of all of that was invaluable.

Angela Nicholson  17:04  
It's really hard to articulate what it is you like about an image, particularly if it's abstract, I think it's very easy. If it's, you know, a picture of a person a portrait, you can identify certain elements and you know, talk about like stuff. But if it's more abstract image, or perhaps a detail, it's, it can be really hard to articulate. Certainly, I mean, I'm sure you got better at it more articulate at it as you went along. But that's quite a challenge.

Rachael Talibart  17:31  
Yeah, it's not easy. I mean, there's two, two answers to that. Number one, I hadn't the advantage that I'd done to arts degrees, which different set of skills but certainly, as most degrees are these days, they're not narrow in if you're doing literature, you don't only look at literature, so I'd done courses on on art history. So I had the language to and the the basic skills, I would say I was an expert, but the basic skills that would help me be able to discuss a piece of visual art, whether it's a painting or a photograph or something else again, and and articulate what I liked and didn't like about it and why. So that was really helpful. Number one, for me. Number two, I was very aware having in a previous life, and I hope I'm not just about to alienate half your listeners, I was a camera club judge for a few years, not a well known fact. And the comment that I used to get back from so many clubs I've tried been was so refreshing to have a judge who comments on the emotional impact of a photograph before they analyse it technically. Well, for me, that amazed me that feedback, because it seems to me that must always be the right way to go about it. But that was definitely how I went about it with the work that Jonathan asked me to look at. Now, how did it make me feel before I started talking about the composition and the light and all of those other things, and that can work across every genre? Of course,

Angela Nicholson  19:10  
I think it's a really hard thing to do, actually, isn't it? You mentioned being a camera club, judge, you know, sometimes you'll see pictures, you think, well, that's just amazing. And it's easier to talk about something that's you are really respond to you think it's fantastic, that you see a picture, you just don't like it, for whatever reason, and it's quite hard to say that in a way, which is helpful and kind, rather than just, it's not for me a move on.

Rachael Talibart  19:37  
Yeah, I mean, that's the core thing. You've got to be kind. If you've got a bit that's that's a rule for life, right? Everything. Yeah, we just need to be kind. And it's amazing how you can always find something nice to say about a photograph. So I mean, the classic examples would be for example, you know, you'd see the picture of So bright orange sky with a completely blacked out messy foreground that someone may be just stuck the camera out the window at sunset, and it's in a camera club competition, it's not going to win, it's not even going to avoid the bottom set of pictures. But you can still say, great to see you making photographs that was probably an antisocial time of day. That's a brilliant skill to have. And now you're going to be able to take that into your landscape photography, and you're going to nail it because so many people don't realise that the light in the middle of the day is rarely satisfying. So well done. And then you can say next time, maybe if you see some light that you like, you could find a more interesting foreground, and this is how you could do it. And there's always a way to present the feedback constructively. But it takes a lot of work. I used to come home from those evenings completely, absolutely exhausted. Because it's jolly hard work. But it's okay. I don't do it anymore, because I haven't got time for it. But you know, I did enjoy it for a long time.

Angela Nicholson  21:10  
Yes. And when you were talking about, you know, looking at images from photographers who don't really do a great deal of social media, did you spend a lot of time in galleries? Did you travel a lot to different galleries?

Rachael Talibart  21:21  
I'm lucky I live half an hour from London from Waterloo. So there are there is always it's not hard for me to go and see exhibitions. And I love it. I absolutely love it. I've recently popped down to the new centre for British photography. Have you been there yet?

Angela Nicholson  21:40  
I haven't been there yet. No, unfortunately. But I am planning to.

Rachael Talibart  21:43  
I really enjoyed it actually. And I know that they're planning to sort of have circulating exhibitions so that it won't always be the same stuff when you go. And I just love seeing all these places popping up. It's fantastic, isn't it? The more the merrier.

Angela Nicholson  22:01  
Yeah, and it's I've we've had a few SheClicks meetups at some exhibitions. And the last one I could think of was Vivian Maier, up at Milton Keynes. And that was it was a fantastic exhibition. But also it was a really nice experience, because it's quite immersive. She took so many shots of reflections and using mirrors and all that stuff. And they had a few mirrors dotted around the exhibition for people to kind of to experiment with. And we had some great fun people trying to replicate some of her images or include her images in their photographs with reflections. And oh, that's amazing. You tend to think of sometimes you think of an exhibition being quite a passive experience. But that definitely wasn't it was very immersive. It was great. Really good. So yes, hopefully, we'll have more of those.

Rachael Talibart  22:44  
That's a sound lovely. I wish I didn't, I didn't make it. I didn't make it to that. And I wish I had done that. Really feeling grumpy with myself. I don't go it

Angela Nicholson  22:54  
Was exhibiting in a gallery always your intended not so much endpoint, but outcome? Was that what you were aiming for?

Rachael Talibart  23:02  
Yeah, I actually looking back, I'm sure that's the case, because I have a very real, real proof of that, because I'm a bit mad. And sometimes I just get carried away with something new and go, or hell for leather. And I say that April 2015 was the that epiphany moment, as I've called it somewhat tongue in cheek. And in October 2015, I had my first solo exhibition that well, and I'd hardly exhibited at all up till that point, just like a picture in a camera club exhibition or something like that. So I went from zero to 60 and alarming speed. And it was so stressful. I tell you the number of times I thought no, no, I can't do this. What am I doing? This is too hard. What? How much hubris can you possibly have Rachel to think that you could do this? You're not ready. And I just somehow there is this voice in the back of my head that just said, look, you've said you're gonna do it. So just do it. What's the worst that can happen? No one buys anything. So you don't need to tell people no one bought anything. Just do it, you know? So I did it. And yeah, I loved it. I'm really glad I did it despite the unbelievable burden of stress, even for example, down to the fact that two weeks before the gallery said to me, Oh, we don't think you've got enough pictures for the walls. We need twice as many. So we're two weeks notice I had to master another 20 framed prints. And that was just insane. But I did it. And I'm so glad I did. Because at the end of it, the confidence boost from knowing that I had actually been able to do this. Whether it was brilliant and everything I dreamed for it or not the point Was it happened, I did it, which meant that I could do it again. And that was just such a boost to my confidence.

Angela Nicholson  25:08  
And tell us a little bit about the exhibition. How did you find the gallery? Did they come to you? Did you go to them? What did you show?

Rachael Talibart  25:14  
So there was a little local gallery. They've retired since, which is a shame and little local gallery in Weybridge where I was getting my framing done. So, I knew them because I'd spent money getting stuff framed. They're not just my photographs. But if my husband and I bought something that needed to be framed by someone else. And I went along one day with something to be framed, something we bought on holiday. And I said, you know, I'm a photographer, and they said, more, or not another one. And I said, Do you fancy do something a bit different? It's always a general hanging in here. Do you want to do an exhibition for two weeks? And would you give me the space? And to my absolute amazement, they said, Yes. I was absolutely convinced myself that everyone was always going to say no to me, though, I think that's just that your beginning. You just can't imagine anyone say Yes, right? No, why would they? But they said yes. And then there was a lettings agency, just across the road from them literally looks out at that gallery from their windows. And they had licenced one of my Weybridge sort of stock landscape photos for their website. And so we'd had a dialogue and we got on well, socially. You know, we chatted more than just about the licencing. So I poked my nose in there. I said, Hi, it's Rachel. Nice to see you. We had a nice chat and a cup of tea. And then I said, so I'm doing this crazy thing. I can't believe I'm doing it. Look, I'm doing this. Do you fancy doing some client entertaining? Would you like to sponsor the private view? Nice. And again, I expected them to say no. And they said yes. They said, coincidentally, we've just been thinking about doing some client entertaining, this would be perfect. You must exhibit the picture. We've licenced? That was the only prerequisite. Yeah. Okay. That's fine. It was an exhibition in Weybridge. So it made sense. So, that's what happened. And they brought all of their clients to the private view all these because it's a very high end lettings agency. We have this estate in Weybridge called St. George's Hill, which is where it's now full of Russian oligarchs. But at the time, it was just full of super rich people. And they came to the exhibition and they drank all the wine and ate all the food. And guess how much they bought? Guess 

Angela Nicholson  27:41  
Oh, oh, no. No, no sales,

Rachael Talibart  27:48  
Correct. They bought not a single, not a single thing.

Angela Nicholson  27:54  
Oh, they just ate all the crisps and drank the wine. You know, I would have done? I would have turned up with a packet of red dots. And I would have gone round just sticking a few on surreptitiously. So people thought they were selling that might have got the ball rolling.

Rachael Talibart  28:05  
Yeah, well, actually, I didn't do that. But that's a really clever idea. I should have consulted you, I didn't know. But I did invite people myself as well. And enough people enough people bought prints on that evening, enough of my acquaintances who got drunk enough, bought enough prints that we had, by the end of the evening broken Eve or I had, by the end of the evening broken even. Oh, lovely. So and then it ran for two, two weeks, I was in there almost everyday stewarding all day. And we I did end up. I mean, the gallery made a shedload of money because I had to pay them to frame all of these prints. But I made up making a little bit of money, nothing, nothing considerable. But it showed me that I could do this. Yeah. And that was, even if I hadn't covered my costs that would have been, that would have been enough of a reward.

Angela Nicholson  29:02  
And of course, you learned so much in that process, because suddenly you just you discover all of the things you kind of Oh yeah, I'll get some prints done. I'll have them put in a frame. We'll do this, we'll do that. But you learn about all the other little things like are you actually going to have to do the hanging? Are you going to do the spacing is the gallery going to turn around and say you need twice as many prints, all of that sort of stuff you discover? And you can take that and build upon it currently for the next time. So is that what you did? Did you then sit down and map out your next exhibition?

Rachael Talibart  29:30  
Absolutely. Right. Well, after that I got invited to do some group exhibitions with other photographers that I knew socially. And those were really great. But I didn't put on another solo exhibition that I had. In fact, every solo exhibition I've had since hasn't been my idea. It's been suggested to me by others, because a big thing happened in very early January, February, really 2016, I started publishing the work that I've become most well known for. And that work I've been doing in winter 2050 while this exhibition was going on, I was also down at the coast doing this one, and then into 2016, finally getting really good conditions and getting work. That was the best I'd produced of this genre so far. And I shared some of it on Twitter. And initially, Steve Watkins, the late Steve Watkins, who was a huge, huge supporter of me, and a wonderful man much missed. He saw the work, loved it, and pushed it out there. So published, it gave me the double-page spread at the beginning of outdoor photography magazine. And he was just lovely about it. And then it started to get more and more attention. And it got won some awards, and it got out there into the world. And then people started approaching me to do exhibitions. And that was really, really nice. So I don't know if you know, thin Hopson in Brighton, Brighton photography gallery. I don't know. No. He said, Okay, lovely, lovely. Guy really like Finn and I. We were friendly. Anyway. So I'd been down to the gallery, I bought things I chatted in, not because I wanted him to do anything for me. But just because I like to support other photographers. And he's a nice guy. And I like his work. And he just one day said, Would you like to have a solo show in my gallery? And I said, Yes, of course. So then I had that solo show. And then a gallery in America reached out to me American phrase, but they're American, no oil, and invited me to exhibit in a group exhibition there. And because it went well, they then offered me representation. And the thing is, the more that happens, the more new stuff happens after it, it's sort of like it's like a tree, you know, that is sort of spreading out, and you get more and more reach? Yes. So it all happened quite organically after that.

Angela Nicholson  32:11  
Yeah. You never really know where these things are going to lead. Do you start doing something and like you say, you just suddenly somebody pops into the gallery and see something and they give you a business card or they follow up with an email or something you never quite know, sometimes it's nothing or sometimes you might just make a really great friend that you can, you know, email or call every now and again to get a little bit of support or advice or something like that. But sometimes it can lead to representation in the States, which is amazing. Yeah,

Rachael Talibart  32:39  
Definitely. Right. There's a lot of talk online about are you an introvert or are you an extrovert, this ridiculous fake dichotomy. And the idea is that, you know, if you're a proper artist, you're an introvert. And you're, you know, you're very deep. And you know, you go off on your own and you're in your lonely Garret and so on. I'm I'm like most humans, I'm I'm an introvert and an extrovert mixed up together. And the extrovert bit of me likes people, and likes talking to people and meeting people and being friendly with people and chatting. And I think you like in all life, including art, you need both. Yeah. And

Angela Nicholson  33:14  
I, I would class myself as an extrovert in the same way in the I have a I like to talk through ideas with people. And you know, that's why, during the pandemic, for example, I set up a few different zoom groups, because otherwise I just wasn't getting the outlet to have conversations with people as Zoom is actually quite limiting when you try and have a conversation with half a dozen people. But you know, it's just one of those things. If you think through a process verbally, then you need to be with other people.

Rachael Talibart  33:43  
Yeah, I think it was great. What you did during the pandemic? 

Angela Nicholson  33:46  
Oh, thank you. Okay. Well, it's, we're still doing the SheClicks coffee mornings, and they're great fun. We still have quite a laugh every Thursday. Do you still get a buzz from seeing your images hanging in a gallery or in a magazine? Because you've been doing it a while? 

Rachael Talibart  34:00  
No, it never gets old. It just never does. I had a big solo, big solo show in America in the autumn and went out to it to the opening to give an artist's talk and so on. And I walked into the gallery, and there's 10 of my prints, huge prints of my work in this big white space or beautifully hung. She's really good. The gallery owner there. And I actually almost cried. Oh, I felt so emotional. Just seeing the work there. It wasn't my first solo show. They're either in space, so I've had that experience before, but it just never gets old. It just is so nice.

Angela Nicholson  34:45  
Do you enjoy the preparation process? Or is that just incredibly stressful still?

Rachael Talibart  34:50  
I've got better at it. I have got better at it. I know what I'm doing. I know how to minimise the work involved at just learned through necessity, how to work in a way that won't overwhelm me. I wish I could say I've learned that with books are just about to publish my fourth book. And I still working on how to not get stressed about that. But with the exhibitions now it's it's okay, it's okay.

Angela Nicholson  35:19  
Okay, good. I mean with the whole process, whether it's a an exhibition or a book, do you get to a point with it? Well, I've got this, this collection of images, now I'm ready to have an exhibition or now I'm ready for a book, or do you think, well, I've got half as many as I need, I need to crack on and get some more photographs. And then I can do it.

Rachael Talibart  35:38  
Now the first way around. I can't work the other way. So for me, it's really, I mean, you have to adopt the workflow that works for you, right? So this is just, this is what works for me, I'm not suggesting everyone should be this way. But for me, I can't make good work. If I put myself under the pressure of needing it. That's why I almost never do commission's because it wouldn't work for me, I think it would just suck the joy out of it for me. So I go out, make the photographs I want to make and see what happens.

Angela Nicholson  36:13  
But also, if a gallery comes to you and says, Oh, we'd really love to exhibit your work, or somebody you know, a book publisher comes to you and says, Oh, you want to make a book with it? Well, actually, I'm not. I'm not ready yet. I've shown this work. I've produced a book of those images. Have you ever turn them down? Or has that not happened yet?

Rachael Talibart  36:29  
I wish I had enough of those approaches to turn some down. But it's just not. That would be me, me projecting to too big of a picture of myself to suggest that. But it's normally they want to exhibit work they've already seen, right? So the works already there. And it's the same with books. It's work that's already been seen. And the hard thing is, is to keep it fresh. Yeah. You sort of feel like oh, no, I'm not exhibiting that picture again, am I? What about one of my new pictures. And the temptation for the galleries is always to exhibit the work that they already know is already successful. So the harder thing is to get them to take on new work. Yeah, so that's the way around, it works for me.

Angela Nicholson  37:19  
Now, you also lead workshops, and I wondered how that works for you. Because I know that they book up very, very quickly. Because I've witnessed people booking them halfway through one of your webinars that you go for she clicks. But how do you how do you sort of resist the pressure to do more and still be able to concentrate on your photography as well? Cuz I know you're very strict about you don't take photographs when you're a workshop, do you?

Rachael Talibart  37:42  
Hardly ever, when I do photography tours for ocean capture, if it's a group I already know, well, I might make a few works of photographs, but it's usually just handheld grab shots. I just don't feel comfortable setting a tripod up and standing there. And immersing myself in photography, when I've got clients to look after. I first of all, I really enjoy leading workshops. And I have made I've got so many clients that I've got to know I've had the privilege of getting to know them over a long time. Because my workshops, business is now in its ninth year of trading. So it's it's well established. And these these clients, I mean, I hope I'm not overreaching, they might see it differently. But I think of them as friends now. And I welcome seeing them, and I welcome seeing how their photography is developing. And I also welcome new clients who have the potential to become these client Friends of the future. And it's massively rewarding. The downside is, as you very astutely suggest, balancing that with photography, for me is really, really hard. And there have been more times than I could possibly count. I don't want to count them, actually, because there are too many, where conditions have been completely amazing. And I've been down before the workshop, I've seen the forecast, that here is a golden opportunity for me to make photos that I pretend, perhaps I'm trying to get. And I can't because I've got a commitment to a workshop group. And of course, you never cancel a workshop unless it's COVID. You know, you you absolutely. You do the workshop and you do it with enthusiasm, even though you can't get the photos and the conditions are exceptional. And that is the downside. But in the end, I think I think it probably is a satisfactory compromise for me to miss out sometimes on those opportunities, but have the joy of of being with these enthusiasts. My clients and you know, no one in my family cares about photography at all. So I get to spend, I get to spend a day with a group of like minded creative people. And they pay me for it. I mean, I can't really ask for more than that.

Angela Nicholson  40:15  
Yeah. And there is definitely a joy in seeing someone else, particularly if you've helped them capture an image that they're really, really happy with. Oh, yeah. It's just a beautiful thing.

Rachael Talibart  40:26  
I absolutely agree. And those, it really is, and you must have that on your SheClicks stuff as well. And it's just an absolute joy. You know, when a client experiences a light bulb moment, and you're standing next to them, and they've experienced it, because of something you've shown them or said to them, and I could get high on those experiences.

Angela Nicholson  40:49  
Yeah, it is lovely. SheClicks meetups, what's really nice, you know, we break for coffee and cake or whatever. And people are passing the cameras, and I've got the shot, good shot, and there's nothing but sheer joy and happiness for them and asking them about a Where did you capture that? And how did you do it? And that's amazing. Well done. That's brilliant. There's no, there's no jealousy or anything. It's just a really enjoyable experience of everybody being happy for someone who's captured a really fantastic image.

Rachael Talibart  41:15  
That's lovely. And that is to be to be fair, that's down to you creating the right atmosphere in your group. And that's tremendous. I think that's quite hard to do. There is in fact, a lot of jealousy, a seething out there, in photography, just as much as there is in any walk of life. But the fact that you you don't have it at she clicks is I think, incredible. So well done. I really respect that.

Angela Nicholson  41:38  
No, thank you. Well, I would say it's, it's the SheClickers who make the group what it is, and they are a really nice, fun group that I like spending time with. And on that subject. It's now time to move on to the section I'm calling six from SheClicks. And I've got 10 questions from some SheClicks members. And I'm going to ask you to answer six of them. So could you pick a number from one to 10? Please?

Rachael Talibart  42:06  
Four.

Angela Nicholson  42:07  
Four, okay. Right. Many of your images have names of ancient gods or monsters as their title. were you always interested in mythology? Or did the images inspire you to get into the subject? And that question is from Nadia.

Rachael Talibart  42:22  
Hi, Nadia, I might know no idea. I have always enjoyed Well, since I can remember certainly from childhood enjoyed myths. I'm a voracious consumer, not just literature, but also, I love movies, and TV. And all of these things I'd find myself gravitating to stuff with, with Miss. And then when, for that. Ba the Open University ba I actually did a whole course on Homer, text and archaeology, which was absolutely amazing. And so then I was even more obsessed. And I have got so many books at home about myths. So yes, the myth the interesting myths came first.

Angela Nicholson  43:07  
Okay, some of the images seem to fit them so perfectly. Obviously, that's why you chose them?

Rachael Talibart  43:14  
Well, it's really hard. That's the hard bit. I've just got some new sirens in the new book, I want to have at least one siren that no one's ever seen before. And I spent yesterday researching myths to find the right one about siren. And it's getting harder and harder because the easy ones I've used already.

Angela Nicholson  43:35  
All part of the process. Okay, so can I have another number from one to 10? Please? 

Rachael Talibart  43:41  
Six.

Angela Nicholson  43:42  
Six. Okay. Oh, this is interesting. How do you decide if it's a slow shutter speed day or not? Are there certain types of weather? Or do you look do a bit of both during the shoot? And that question is from Janina?

Rachael Talibart  43:55  
Great, thank you, Janina. Good question. These are good questions. Okay, so it does, it does, it does depend, which is a bit of a rubbish job. So I'll elaborate. In fact, I was just going through a day on Lightroom at the weekend from last year, where in the bulk of the day there was there were big waves, and I was down at New Haven doing storm waves, and they're fast shutter for me. I just don't want to smooth out these amazing waves, these huge waves I want to capture. So I generally I prefer to work with nature, rather than against it. So if nature's offering me up a stormy day, I'm not going to do a long exposure and smooth that out. If nature is offering me up a calm day, I might do a long exposure just to accentuate that atmosphere, right. So in the morning and afternoon, we're actually in the middle of the day because high tide big storm as fast shutter but then I have a three hour round trip to get to the coast because I live in a suburb of London. So I'm I'm not going to waste that day, because that's like carbon footprint and fuel and so on, I need to make the most of it. So when the tide went out towards the end of the day when we've got much, they're not big waves now because the tides out, but we're getting some lovely light, I moved to a different location, I went to Berlin gap, and I got the tripod out and I started doing slow shutter work. So I think the answer is actually was suggested in the question is one of the options, which is that to an extent, the conditions are driving my choice, because I'm working with nature all the time. I'm not going to work against it. I'm going to, I'm going to work in tandem with it as much as I can.

Angela Nicholson  45:44  
 . So you think about what it's offering you and therefore how you want to interpret it. 

Rachael Talibart  45:49  
Yeah. 

Angela Nicholson  45:50  
Okay, so we need another number, please.

Rachael Talibart  45:53  
Yes. Okay. Let's go for number 10. 

Angela Nicholson  45:55  
Number 10. Okay, do you use a high frame rate to shoot each wave? If so, how do you select the final image? And that's questions by Liz.

Rachael Talibart  46:04  
Thank you Liz. For sirens, so that's the fast shutter photos of big storm waves, I'm using high speed continuous on my Canon. So yeah, bursts, I've sort of three or four maybe frames per wave. Not always. But these waves that have a moment where they they clash and they peak is strangely slow, when you're working with them, and you can run off three or four photos of that peak. And each one will look subtly different. So then the really challenging thing. And the really time consuming thing which is understood in your question is afterwards is going through, I might, I might take 1000 photographs. In a storm, I might take two or 3000, depending if it's a really good storm, and several of one wave and it's gonna take me a really long time to go through all of them. And I just don't put myself under any pressure. You know, I usually leave the memory cards for a long time, I don't look at them too quickly. And then it's just a lovely surprise to upload them and, and just go through. And sometimes I can tell you now I can think of two waves that yielded each two portfolio photos. Because in the waves evolution within the burst, there were two very different images. This takes a while to find them.

Angela Nicholson  47:27  
Yeah. I mean, this is this is my question now. But um, do you see high burst rates? You know, we're talking five frames a second used to be extraordinary exciting, but now we're seeing, you know, 2030, even 40 frames a second being feasible? Is that an advantage to you? Or is that? Is that just going to give you so many more images to sort through?

Rachael Talibart  47:52  
Yeah, it's not an advantage to me. I found my I use quite old gear now. My camera is seven or eight years old. And it's I think it's can do nine frames? I think it can do nine? I'm not sure. It can't do many it can do single figures. Yeah. frames per second. And that's okay. That's okay. It's enough. Yeah. So if I start rattling off 20, I'm gonna have too many pictures, and they're all gonna look the same.

Angela Nicholson  48:23  
Okay. Okay. Could I have another number, please? Number two. Number two, how much do you plan your shoots? Or do just go out and see what's there? Like questions from Rebecca.

Rachael Talibart  48:39  
Yeah, I do plan to an extent. But again, it's it's really connected to what the weather's doing. And I've got so many different projects on the go, they all suit different conditions. And that's really nice. So rather than if I like only had one project on the go, that's going to severely limit me in the sorts of days that I can make photos. So I have loads of projects on the go. And there'll be one that only works, I think one of them in golden hour, when there's no clouds. Which great. So if the forecast if I've got a day free, and I'm not teaching or do something else, and the forecast says plain blue skies all day, doesn't matter. Because I've got that project, I can do that. I head out for the edge of the day, and enjoy an hour, hour and a half on a sandy beach with the perfect light for that project. So I do however, also look at the forecasts for very specific conditions. So for example, Storm NOAA came through last week. I knew it was coming. I checked the forecast and I had the day for free. So I was able to go down and make some more cybers. So yes, it's working with the weather and doing some planning, but also having enough projects on the go and enough ideas So I can, if I've got a day set aside for photography, which is rare, even if the conditions aren't a storm Noah, I can, it's still worth me going. But I might choose a different location, you know that the project that I want that that's direct sunlight at the end of the day. I need sand for that. So I will say, right today, I need to go to this beach because it's sunny. And so I'm going to have to do that project. And I need this beach for that project. And then I check the tide. And hopefully it all comes together.

Angela Nicholson  50:34  
And do you use any specific apps to help you with the forecasts? You know, either the tide and the weather and the direction of the light?

Rachael Talibart  50:42  
Yes, so I have a very favourite tide app. It's called Nora tide, NAU, as in nautical NAU tide. And that gives me lots and lots of tidal information she needs to know a lot more than just when is high tide and low tide? You need to know, is it a big spring tide? Is it not? You need to know the heights and all of that. It's really, really useful. And then I'm really old school with the weather though I just look at the BBC website. Sometimes I use when I'm when I'm abroad I've used there's a Norwegian app or site called y r.no. Lots of people swear by it. So I do use that too. But I haven't found it to be any more or less accurate than any of the others out there.

Angela Nicholson  51:35  
Okay, so penultimate number

Rachael Talibart  51:38  
One.

number one.

Angela Nicholson  51:40  
Okay. How much is the weather and influence on whether you go out to capture images? And do you ever think it's too sunny, or the sea is too calm? And that question was actually asked by both Rebecca and Carmen.

Rachael Talibart  51:51  
Well, thank you, Rebecca, and Carmen, I do feel I've actually answered that completely in my answer to the previous question, though. So I might say see above.

Angela Nicholson  52:02  
Fair enough, fair enough. Okay, so last number

Rachael Talibart  52:07  
Seven. 

Angela Nicholson  52:08  
Number seven. Did you encounter much resistance from friends or family when you made your career change? Now, obviously, you've explained that that wasn't just an overnight decision. It was a sort of 15 year process. But you know, was it warmly received by friends and family?

Rachael Talibart  52:24  
I don't think they care. It's like, oh, whatever, whatever. Yeah, she's so strange.

Angela Nicholson  52:32  
Your husband did buy you a digital camera, which though, you know, didn't elicit the response he wanted originally. Initially, I should say, Yeah, you know, supportive move.

Rachael Talibart  52:41  
He's a supportive husband. I wouldn't be married to him if he wasn't likely. So, you know, you choose who your partner is, don't you? I'd like your family, you get to choose your partner.

Angela Nicholson  52:51  
Well, Rachel, it's been absolutely fantastic to hear from you. Thank you so much for joining us on this podcast.

Rachael Talibart  52:57  
It's been absolutely my pleasure. Thank you so much for asking the Angela.

Angela Nicholson  53:01  
Thanks for listening to the SheClicks Women in Photography podcast. I hope you enjoyed hearing from Rachael as much as I did. I'll put links to her social media accounts and website in the show notes so you can keep up to date with her. 

I'll be back with another episode soon. So please subscribe to the show on your favourite podcast platform and tell all your friends and followers about it. You'll also find SheClicks on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube if you search for she clicks net. So until next time, enjoy your photography.