Tracy Calder: Ferrero Rocher and the Storytelling of Close-Up Photographer of the Year

Tracy Calder: 0:04

The emotion is the biggest judge of a picture, I think. If you feel something when you look at it, you shouldn't dismiss it because it's got this technical fault. Whatever if you've looked at it and you felt something, but that's the first indication that it's a good picture.

Angela Nicholson: 0:18

Welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson, and I'm the founder of SheClicks, which is community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I talk with women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them, and how they got to where they are now. In this episode, I'm speaking with Tracy Calder, a photographer, editor and writer whose work has appeared in numerous consumer magazines, countless books, and exhibitions at the Photographer's Gallery, and the National Portrait Gallery in London. In 2018, Tracy co-founded Close Up Photographer of the Year, a competition, blog and newsletter celebrating close up macro and micro photography. Hi, Tracy, thank you so much for joining me today on the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. It's really great to see you.

Tracy Calder: 1:03

Thank you, Angela. It's really good to be here. I'm excited to do this podcast.

Angela Nicholson: 1:07

Thank you. Now it's funny because it occurred to me a while ago that though we've known each other for absolutely ages, and we've worked on the same magazines, albeit at different times and same projects, and worked together a few times. I don't actually know how you got into photography. So I thought maybe you could start by filling me in on that.

Tracy Calder: 1:26

Yeah, well, I guess like a lot of people I got into photography through my dad who was a really keen amateur. So he bought me my first camera as a secondhand camera and SLR which I still have in the cupboard somewhere, kind of t 70. And I took it home. And for some reason I got a Ferrero Rocher box, filled it with fruit and spent about three days photographing it and who knows why, but that was the beginning.

Angela Nicholson: 1:48

Okay, what age were you at that point?

Tracy Calder: 1:52

Or probably about 10, 11 Something like that.

Angela Nicholson: 1:55

Oh, wow. So you got, you got started pretty early then.

Tracy Calder: 1:59

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think really, mostly, I think I was, uh, I was already writing by that. And, and I was very keen writer, and I like writing about art and things like that. So photography and writing have always been sort of parallel interest to me. So I think I got to a point a few years ago, and I thought, I really should have just picked one. And then I realised actually, no, I really like telling people stories, whether that be through pictures, or whether that be through words. So I kind of accepted the fact that yes, I'm a storyteller, whether that be through photography or writing. So I'm very happy to have those two sort of balls in the air at the same time.

Angela Nicholson: 2:30

Yeah, that is a really good combination, I think, especially if your role. And how did that actually lead to a career in photography.

Tracy Calder: 2:37

Really, it was the writing that came first, again, I got very interested in writing and looking at photographs. And then I went to work for outdoor photography magazine, and I was there from sort of issue one, and it's something like 300 now, and I still work for them, which seems a bit mad. But I got really, really interested in that. And then I just, I think I just kind of slipped into the sort of magazine world. And I've never left it because I still you know, although magazines, obviously, it's hard to find quality magazines these days, I still love them. I still love tearing pictures out, I still are sticking stuff. I mean, behind me here is low stuff, I paste it to the wall from magazines. So I got into it through the magazine, sort of editorial side of things really on the you know, the photography side.

Angela Nicholson: 3:15

Did you ever study photography, or have any formal training or anything?

Tracy Calder: 3:19

I did media and cultural studies at university, and they had a kind of elective for photography. And until then I'd kind of thought that photography was all about sort of beautiful landscapes and things like that. And then the lecture, they introduced me to sort of Richard Billingham'As Ray's A Laugh book, which I think is just being reissued. And suddenly, there's kind of light bulb went off in my head, and I thought, Oh, my God, photography. Although I love beautiful landscapes, photography can also be something else, it can be a way of telling a story it can be, it doesn't have to be beautiful, it can be in a one method or one vessel of telling a story. So that kind of got me interested. And then from then on, and that elective. It really was like a lightbulb moment. And I thought no, you know, magazines and photography. I love them both. But is there some way I could combine them? And that was the kind of beginning of it really, I guess,

Angela Nicholson: 4:00

As you said Ray's A Laugh, that just brought back so many pictures into my head. I'd, you know, momentarily forgotten about that. And yeah, I remember discussing that at great length at university. I mean, it is a fantastic book. So great that to hear it's been reissued.

Tracy Calder: 4:16

Well, yeah. I mean, they're reissuing it but they're also doing a kind of companion guide to it as well at the same time. So you can see I've ordered them both. I don't think it's come out just yet. So there was that. And there was also, I don't know, you saw Simon Norfolk for most of it. I have no words, which was about sort of genocide, landscape and memory. And it was he went and photographed all these sites where atrocities have taken place. And there was something really haunting about the pictures and I spent an entire week's food budget at university buying this book, which I still have downstairs and every time I look at it, I think yeah, you know, that, to me shows the power of photography and its storytelling ability.

Angela Nicholson: 4:48

Wow, that's quite a commitment. So it was like one Pot Noodle for the rest of the week?

Tracy Calder: 4:52

It was like a can of beans for the week, Angela not even a Pot Noodle.

Angela Nicholson: 4:57

Well, gosh. Once you sort started on your path. Your lecturer showed you a few things that interested you. But did you develop a career plan from there? Did you have a firm idea about what you wanted to do?

Tracy Calder: 5:08

I don't think I've ever had a plan Angela. I think I think I wanted to get into magazines that I had this idea that I would be like the next I don't know, I'd go work on Vogue or something. And I had did some work experience with these sort of women's magazines really early on, and I absolutely hated it, like properly hated it, I realised that this whole world was not my world. And then when I found the photography community, I thought, yeah, these are my people. I like this bunch. So that kind of got me into that area. And I think with the close up stuff, it was just, I was I was always interested in close up photography from the very beginning, because I like photographing plants. And they were one of the first things that I photograph. And then I think in I wrote a book about close up in sort of 2010, something like that. And then I met this amazing lady called Rosalind Fisher. I don't know whether you've ever met her, but she's a photographer for America. And she was working on this project called the typography of tears. Basically, she was going through a period of grief and loss. And one day she was sitting at home sort of crying. And she suddenly wondered, like, I guess, creative people do, I wonder what these tears look like, you know, wonder if they did the tears, I cry when I'm sad or different to the tears, I cry when I'm happy or when I'm in pain. So she started this photographic project, recording slight tears on slides and photographing them under a microscope. And I saw this project, I interviewed her. And suddenly, again, another sort of light bulb went off in my head, and I thought, Oh, my God, you know, photography can be used for such a therapeutic purpose. And yet, it can also be used to show people the world in a way they've never seen it before. And then that's when I got really close up and thought actually, this, this could be my sort of specialisation.

Angela Nicholson: 6:39

What is it that you really like about close up photography?

Tracy Calder: 6:42

I think the main thing I like is it slows you down. And I think it's very tempting to go around and fire away, and then come home, you've got a million pictures to look at. But with close up, you can't rush it. And I think it takes patience. It takes perseverance and it takes practice, because it's not an easy genre. But when you get into it, you can really get into you know, I guess we call it the slow, don't, where you can really get into sort of creative zone in your head. And you don't notice all these things going on. I mean, people I've been there, and my husband has just sort of told wandered off and told me he was sitting next to that for two hours. What are you doing? You were so in the zone, you don't notice anything around you because it absolutely slows you down. It's really mindful genre. I think photography, really, you know, I think it's just a really good therapeutic for photography. I think it really helped in the early days, 2010, etc. When around that time, I really used it to sort of enhance my well being and it made a massive difference. So I've always loved it for that aspect. Definitely.

Angela Nicholson: 7:37

Yeah, I guess one of the other things as well as it's so accessible, isn't it? Oh, totally. Because you can like she you know, you got your fire or che was it fruit she put in the box? You could always find something to photograph either in the kitchen or anywhere around the house.

Tracy Calder: 7:55

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things is is that people get hung up quite a lot on and you know, when when I asked people what are the main concerns you have we close up? What do you struggle with, we get all the technical things like focusing maximising depth of field lighting, etc. But some people say to me, I don't know what to photograph, which just seems crazy to me. Because once you get them into the kind of mindset of approaching everything as though it's a sort of the first time they've seen it. And it's a mixture of shapes. And rather than, you know, like the mouse, instead of it being functional, it's a mixture of curves and shapes and colours. And when you get them into into that kind of shift, then people realise that anything within a metre of where they're sitting right now can become an amazing close up subject. Because like you say, it's an incredibly accessible field. So yeah, I love challenging people are saying, okay, you know, when I teach at westdene, I say to people, okay, you're only allowed to go within sort of two metres or something like that. People, first of all people, there's nothing to photograph, and within an hour, they're still there. And then they're cross when you have to stop is one the more you look, the more you see. And that's the value of it.

Angela Nicholson: 8:54

Yeah. Are they all standing there in their socks because they've taken their shoes off to photograph those and things like that?

Tracy Calder: 9:00

Yeah, pens, toilet. So I've got a very interesting picture of a toilet. And also I teach close up to kids as well. I go to sort of forest schools, and I teach it with poor kids. And it's fascinating watching what they photograph compared to the adults and how they find it very easy to slip into this sort of beginner's mind, because they are beginners. And they are looking at the world as though it's a play thing rather than us where we label things in order to kind of make sense of the world. We put labels on things table chair, this is what it's for. But kids don't have that you know that a table is suddenly, you know, a den or something. So watching them photograph is really interesting. And I find it gives me real energy, spending time with them and doing close up with them.

Angela Nicholson: 9:37

And I guess kids are they're, they know they're learning. They're happy to be learning about anything. They're curious. And they're open about the fact that they don't know stuff, you know, whereas a lot of adults feel a little bit more uncomfortable saying I don't know how to do this and sort of confessing that they weren't born with an innate knowledge of photography and have to work it all out. So maybe kids slip more comfortably into that.

Tracy Calder: 9:59

That's absolutely be true. And I think it's one of those things that kids are much more willing to make what we would class as mistakes, because that's all part of exploration for them. Whereas we, I think, I guess you go through your life when you get used to being judged. And when you're a child, you don't have that. So I guess when we do we think, Oh, God, I hope no one saw us doing that. How embarrassing, you know, we made a mistake or whatever. But I think introducing a bit of play and and also showing people your mistakes and not being afraid to say this didn't work out. I'll do it better next time, I think it's really valuable to know that mistakes are just a stepping stone into doing it, right.

Angela Nicholson: 10:29

Yes, yeah. And I think it's quite hard for particularly for amateur photographers to let go of their mistakes, they sort of see they take 100 pictures, and there's one that's really great. But they still they keep looking at the 99. Whereas I think professional photographers are much more comfortable or have adapted to sort of saying, Look at my amazing picture and the whole Wow, that's fantastic.

Tracy Calder: 10:49

Yeah,

Angela Nicholson: 10:50

they don't feel that need to say, but there were 99 others that were terrible.

Tracy Calder: 10:54

Well someone messaged me the other day. And in fact, I took a workshop last weekend, and people were talking about this and, and she said, I look at these amazing pictures. And people say that about the competition as well, I look at these amazing pictures. And then I feel slightly bad about my own work. And I said, Well, what if i Everyone feels like that. And if I feel like that I tend to do I don't really you've probably seen it Magnum contact sheets, the book. And in that, they've got obviously Henri Cartier Bresson, Robert Capa, all the big names, and it's their contact sheet. So you can see the mistakes they made early on, even with these amazing pictures that we single out and think of them as just taking amazing shot after shot after shot. But there's a whole run up where the action was building, there's almost a deceleration where it went off the other end. And actually, the picture they took was one out of 100 of the rest of them. Some of them are out of focus badly composed, you know, everybody does that. But we were not showing that from the masters or we don't see their mistakes. So a book like that, I think is really useful. So if you ever feel, you know, daunted by someone else's work, I always turn back to that book and say, Look at Henri Cartier Bresson look what he did.

Angela Nicholson: 11:55

Yeah, I think that's, that's a really good idea. I have created a post before and she clicks on the Facebook group with great mistakes or something like that. And it was partner and I realised there were no photos of us together. So wherever we went, I take a tripod, and we'd set up a photo of the two of us together. And there was one where I set it up where I didn't set the self timer to 10 seconds, I set it to two. So I was running. And it's just basically a shot of my backside disappearing on him looking a bit puzzled. And so I posted that excellent. And then everybody was posting mistakes, you know, the things that went wrong. And I think it is important to celebrate, occasionally we make mistakes, or more often than not, we make mistakes. And there's nothing wrong with that. We've been very lucky she clicks to have some exhibitions and without fail. Most of the photographer's at some point say to me, I didn't think my image would even get picked to go on the website, let alone, you know, get printed and be in an exhibition. And it makes me very sad when people say, Oh, I'm not going to enter the challenges because my pictures aren't as good as those ones on the wall. And everybody else thought that as well. And their images are there. Absolutely.

Tracy Calder: 13:02

I think we are we tend to be quite poor judges of our own work anyway. And I think we always think that everybody else is doing something better than we are or, you know, and I think to competition, and I'm a met amazed when I get somewhere and I think oh my god, everybody's so much better than me. So I think everybody I mean, everyone has that imposter syndrome, don't that. I mean, it's just inherent in being a human, I think, yeah. But then the day, you know, if you enter something, it's, it's just nice to be a part of it. You know what I mean? It's nice to be like what they say with the exhibition that she clicks stuff. It's just nice to be part of something just entering it. Even if you don't get somewhere it means that you're part of this. And that's wonderful. And even you just got a you go and look at it, you're part of this great thing that's going on of, of lifting each other up, which is I guess what we were all about, isn't it? Really?

Angela Nicholson: 13:45

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a great way of putting it. And if if only the winners enter, then you know, like 10 people enter and their images get picked, then it's not really a great celebration, is it?

Tracy Calder: 13:55

Not really, no.

Angela Nicholson: 13:56

But if lots of people enter and 10 get picked, then it's worthwhile. So yeah. So you're talking about challenges and competitions, you launched the Close up Photographer of the Year competition, what was it? It's in its sixth year now, isn't it?

Tracy Calder: 14:08

Yes. 2018, I think was when we launched it. Yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 14:11

Wow, fantastic. So what made you decide to launch that?

Tracy Calder: 14:14

I guess it was one of those things, like I said before, is that I'd gained so much well being through shooting close up. And also, I'm a really I'm one of those people that believes everyone should be a lifelong learner. And every single year when people send the pictures in, I learned so much you know, whether it'd be about technique or whether it'd be about how an animal behaves or how a plant grows, I learned so much. And I just wanted to create a space where we could all learn together and where we could celebrate close up as as kind of a way of understanding the world because other competitions always have categories for close up. And obviously you've got Nick on small world, which is more of a sort of scientific element. But there didn't seem to be a competition where we could all get in one place and say hey, look at this field of photography. Look how amazing it is. And share in that kind of wonder of the world because I've always been I think is it Marriott lovers that quote about or about a good life, and it's something about, you know, find something to wonder at, and then share it with other people. And that's, I guess what the competition was I wanted it to be about was okay, how can I help people tell their stories? How can we get it out in the press? How can we join together and celebrate the field and, and show all these little parts of the world that someone might never seen before that pictures might be sitting on people's computers where they could be shown to 1000s of people, I guess there's a conservation element to it as well, I wanted people to understand that while it's nice to kind of save pandas and all these bigger animals, they're also amazing insects. They're also amazing plants that no one's ever heard of that are doing plays such a huge and important role. So it was a way of celebrating that as well and being a bit more, a bit more grateful.

Angela Nicholson: 15:43

That's a really good point, isn't it? Because like, you know, sometimes it'd be a dusty corner somewhere in it. Oh, no, would clear that up. And actually, if you look, there's a cute little spider in there. I mean, not everybody likes spiders. But a lot of people do when you start photographing them, you get pulled in with by their eyes and their little fuzzy legs.

Tracy Calder: 15:59

Oh, well, there's one, there was a photograph of a butterfly that someone had taken. And what's amazing is some of our judges are incredible, or we've got such a wealth of different people. A lot of them are scientists, conservationists, so I learned so much. And there was one there was a butterfly pitch. And I said, Well, what are those little things? And he said, Oh, they're the hairs coming out of his eyes. And I was like, what? A butterfly is got hairy eyes. That's so weird. Yeah, why? And he was like, nobody really knows. And I just thought, I love the fact that nobody really knows. And he said, maybe it's because they like to feast on poo. And maybe it's to stop them getting too close to it. I don't know. And I was like, Well, I love I always love the things that we don't know. And there should be things we don't know. And hairy, hairy butterfly eyes is one of them.

Angela Nicholson: 16:43

And the theories that people come up with that might explain it, but we don't know. So you had the idea. And now you're in the sixth year, but obviously, you know, that didn't it wasn't just a case of flicking a switch? How did you actually get from having the idea to launching a competition? Or you obviously got to put a website together? You've got to have some sort of system for judging and all of that.

Tracy Calder: 17:03

Yeah, goodness. I mean, it's I think it's one of those things that people I think until you do it yourself, you don't quite realise how much work is involved in running a competition. I mean, you've been a judge on many big competitions. So you know, that side of it. And I've been a judge on some landscape photography a year ago and talking to you those sorts of competitions as well. So we know one side of it, but the admin side of it. And the general day to day running of it is a huge amount of work, which I'm very lucky because my husband does a lot of that site, because I'm not the most technical person. So he set up the website. And I already had a good relationship with sigma from the past. So I just basically went to sigma at the beginning and said, I love it. You know, I've been using your macro lens for 10 years. I told them a story about Rosalyn and the tears. And I said, Look, can you help us out? And they were so wonderful. And they said, Yeah, we'll get behind that. And they're still on board with us, which is wonderful. So really, it just kind of started with that, because I'm not a marketing person. I'm not a publicity person. But obviously, we have to deal with all that now. So it's very much learning on the job. But it because it's such a lovely thing to do. It's something that it doesn't feel like work to me. I shouldn't really say that, but it doesn't. So so it's a lot of work. But it is fun work. So yes, they just started with me going in a bit ignorant and saying, Look, we don't know what we're doing. But I think this could be good. And I really excited about it. Well, you come on board, and people started supporting us, which was wonderful. We've been so lucky with the support we've had, which has been great.

Angela Nicholson: 18:21

So I think you definitely tapped into something that people wanted, because it's its name is, you know, it seems like it's been around for longer than six years. Put it that way. You know, its name is quite big. Everybody recognises it knows exactly what it is. When does it actually open for entries this year?

Tracy Calder: 18:39

Well this year it's gonna be May. So we're kind of at the point where we're just sort of doing the publicity for the winners of the previous one. So that's been really good. And we've had it a year on year it seems to be building we got the BBC this year, which was one of our big aims. So that was great. So yes, I think this one is just kind of closing out, then we've got the results of the previous challenge, which are coming out now. The shortlist will be announced at the end of the month. And the main competition, year six will be starting in May. So that's the plan.

Angela Nicholson: 19:05

Exciting time. Do you have any different categories? Are you intending to launch? Or is that under wraps for now? Or are you sticking with what you've got?

Tracy Calder: 19:12

We are thinking of doing an arachnids category, because obviously there's a lot of spiders in the competition. So there will be a slight merging of categories. So I think we've got 11 At the moment, that's probably well was stay but there may be some merging and mixing. Just as I think we've we've had been going long enough now to see the patterns and where people were, you know which categories are the most popular and where we think we should split one up. So because sometimes it's very difficult if you've got a category, and you're asking someone to judge us, but if you've got say an animal's category, you're asking someone to judge a spider against the poor of a leopard or something. It's very difficult for them to judge it. It's not like for like so there are ways that we have to kind of break the categories around and we talked to the judges about their recommendations. They've been so helpful, so there may be some jig digging around, but not a huge difference.

Angela Nicholson: 19:54

Okay. What would you say are the biggest challenges that you faced over the last few years putting the competition to together?

Tracy Calder: 20:01

That's a good question, actually, I think sometimes managing people's expectations is quite tricky. I think sometimes people think there's a huge team behind the competition, and it's really just me and my husband. So, you know, obviously, when we're doing publicity and things like that people will expect a really fast response. And it might be that we, you know, we can't do that. And what we'd really like to do is to do to do a book. But obviously, the cost of producing a book is just incredible these days. So that that's been our aim for a couple of years. But the more we've looked into it, the costing and everything, it's very difficult. So, so we're kind of looking at options around that. And what we can do to, to get people's work out there a bit more, because part of the what we wanted to do is right from the beginning, we have a lot of conservationists, and obviously, they want to tell their story. But sometimes if they're, even if their pitcher winds, they can't tell a whole story around it, they've just got a caption. And that's it. So we want to find ways of me as a journalist, helping people tell a whole story around the picture. So they can add other pictures and make photos stories and, and help get their message out rather than just being a single image. So that's my kind of aim from now on is trying to help people sort of add a bit of meat to that one picture and take out into the world as a kind of package rather than just one shot.

Angela Nicholson: 21:06

I guess the bigger the competition gets, and you know that the more people recognise it, then the more publicity each winner or category winner will get. And so the more likely it is that their stories will get out because people want to know the background.

Tracy Calder: 21:18

Yeah, definitely. That has happened. I think the last couple of years, like I said, with, with the BBC, they wanted to interview the young winner this year. And he had a really interesting story around the picture, then obviously, the news reader was getting more interested. And, and I think there are, the trouble is, some of them, were talking about sort of National Geographic, and they've been in there before. But they were saying that there aren't many magazines and places like that left where you can tell the whole story. And you can tell a conservation spread or conservation message. So I think it's looking at different outlets for that. And like you say, the more more publicity they get, hopefully, the more chance they'll get to tell their industrial story, and things like this, or you know, podcasts, webinars and stuff where they can add a bit of meat to it. Because that's the thing, I think you're on Instagram or anything like that you can have, you know, 100,000 followers, but they're really just clicking a heart. And they and the photographers kind of want people to do more than that. So I guess it's trying to help them find a way of, you know, being able to do that that's kind of quite important to me.

Angela Nicholson: 22:10

Yeah, it's getting that sort of depths of engagement, like you say, more than just tapping a heart.

Tracy Calder: 22:16

Yeah, and I guess one of the big things has been the judges are there all over the world, and some of them spend most of their life underwater. So it's. So one of the challenges is at work, we this year, we wanted to do it. So I wanted to talk to everyone, because it's quite interesting, because when I do one of my courses, I split people into groups, and I turn them into judges, and we have a set of pictures. And one group is allowed to talk to each other one group has to rate them by points. And then I combined the points and then there's one person on their own. And it's really interesting, teaching them how the judging process works and how there's no real amazing 100% way of doing it. It's everyone has a different method. But try this year, I thought I really want all the judges to be able to talk to each other, or at least on Zoom calls. So the difference of that compared to the first year where we all did it on a point system was really interesting. But trying to get them all in one spot. You know, people in Australia and people are underwater, and God knows what, at the same time was a bit of a logistical challenge.

Angela Nicholson: 23:09

Yes, yeah, it is a bit challenging with that. There's, you know, Zoom and online calls and all that are really, really useful, but you can't get around the timezone thing.

Tracy Calder: 23:18

Sadly not.

Angela Nicholson: 23:19

And how long does it actually take you to do the judging and actually decide the winners?

Tracy Calder: 23:24

It's quite a long time. And I think that's one thing that probably frustrates people is that there's quite a delay between the closing day and the announcement. But to be honest, I think in total, there was probably about 25 hours, something like that judging going on for just to cut it down. So I mean, one thing that surprised me most was when we had about 11,700 800 entries this year. And I think the first thing I do is I go through with my husband and we call anything that's, you know, completely technically you No, not right. And I have to say that's probably about naught point naught 1%. The standard is amazing. So I have the poor judges, I say, Look, I've tried to cut it down. But here you go is 10,000. But we do choose people for different categories. And then we combine so you know.

Angela Nicholson: 24:10

That makes sense, really, because it's a niche of photography. So you're going to entice the people in who are most into that and they're probably more technically competent than others, I suppose. Or, you know, it's not you're not just going to get a snapshot. No,

Tracy Calder: 24:24

I think that's a really good point. I think the people who enter the competition a lot of them already are of a certain standard. So sometimes it's quite nice when I'm judging competition almost have a look and I think I've got 4000 pictures to look at. It's quite nice to know okay, I can cow 1000 of these instantly because they're completely out of focus. But when it comes to this, it's never been that case. Which is a blessing obviously.

Angela Nicholson: 24:45

Yes.

Tracy Calder: 24:45

But tricky.

Angela Nicholson: 24:47

But then you're looking at a spider compared with it, was it a leopards paw you were talking about? So?

Tracy Calder: 24:52

Yeah, yeah. And we've tried to do that less than less because that is so hard. You know, I do appreciate for the judges. That's a really difficult call. I I think what's interesting is we tend to see the same things that people struggle with again and again, with close up. And you see that sort of reflected in the entries. And it's like I said before, it's focusing, it's light, it's often lighting without, you know, Flash without diffusion, which looks really hard. It's kind of, you know, not maximising depth of field. And it's also forgetting about the background to I think some people get so intent on getting everything shut up, they completely forget that there was snow, there's blades of grass poking in, and obviously it close up, but it isn't getting magnified, it's going to look 10 times worse. So there's things like that it's always the same sort of five or six points that you see coming up again, and again. And over processing as well. There's a lot of over processing where people just if they just pulled the sliders back a little bit, it would have been bang on but they've gone too far. So you see the same, I guess, you know, common things again, and again.

Angela Nicholson: 25:49

Yeah, it is really hard. I think if you're relatively new to editing, you kind of like just keep pushing the slider. If you keep looking at the screen, you'll keep pushing it more and more. But what you need to do is look away, and come back, and then you've probably got Oh, yes, and all the switch on and off the effect. So you can see how far you've pushed it.

Tracy Calder: 26:06

That's a really good idea. Yeah, I think switching it on and off or coming. But even just coming back to it another day, or asking someone who's not your partner, or someone who's gonna go Yeah, that's great. What you want for dinner? Do you know?

Angela Nicholson: 26:18

Switching tack slightly, you do a heck of a lot of stuff. You seem to read a lot books, you go to lots of exhibitions, you do a lot of writing, you're running close up photography for the year, and you do a lot of social media too, don't you? How do you balance all of that with family life?

Tracy Calder: 26:34

It's a very good question. I think I'm not the most efficient person at all. So I think, you know, I was saying to my friend of the data photographer, she seems to get so much done in a day. And I say, Oh, well, I did this one thing. You know, but I think, I think because I like it so much. Because it's part of who I am. I don't ever see it as work. Like I said before, so I think you know, I'm quite happy to interview someone at 11pm I'm quite happy to you know, spend my weekend writing my newsletter or whatever it might be, you know, I enjoy it. So I think sometimes I have to remember that I do still have a child who's only 10, who would like to see me occasionally so. So I do have to balance balance that element as well. But I think I just think I enjoy it so much. And I love learning new things. And that's all of those elements, the competition, the reading exhibitions, meeting people, they will, you know, help me to kind of learn more about me, I'm interested in anything from art to science, and I think the competition combines a lot of the things that I love so, so it's enjoyable. I guess that's the only answer because same as you, you do a hell of a lot of things.

Angela Nicholson: 27:38

Well, I would say, variety is the spice of life, isn't it? So if you can mix up lots of different things.

Tracy Calder: 27:43

I was. I'm in awe of you, Angela. So maybe you could tell me how you do everything. And then...

Angela Nicholson: 27:49

I just have very long lists and try and tick things off. That's what I do.

Tracy Calder: 27:53

The best way.

Angela Nicholson: 27:54

So you've got a 10 year old daughter have you bought her her first camera yet?

Tracy Calder: 27:58

She has got a camera. But sadly, she's more interested in watching videos of Taylor Swift on her phone. So unfortunately, I haven't managed to instil my love of photography. But interestingly, when we do judging, she does sometimes come up I do say to judges, if it's a kind of weekend koi so sorry, my daughter might go up the stairs at a minute. And sometimes she'll join in, and she's surprisingly good. She'll point out things never want to go Oh, yeah, that's what I was gonna say. She'll say, Oh, I don't like the way that legs coming into the side of the frame. And she's getting the kind of skills which is which is quite nice. You know? So she's into it. Yeah. But she doesn't. She's not interested in photography, per se. Unfortunately, there's time. There's time.

Angela Nicholson: 28:36

Well maybe she'll get into music videos, shooting those.

Tracy Calder: 28:40

Maybe I should get here a Ferrero Rocher box, Angela, and some fruit.

Angela Nicholson: 28:43

That will be a good start. Yes, you can't go wrong with some Ferrero Rocher. I think it's a really good time to go to Six from SheClicks.

Tracy Calder: 28:53

Great. Yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 28:54

I've got 10 Questions from SheClicks members, and I would like you to answer six of them, please, by picking numbers from one to 10. So could I have your first number please?

Tracy Calder: 29:04

Okay, well, I'm gonna go for number one, please.

Angela Nicholson: 29:07

Number one, okay. You've interviewed many people, which was your most memorable interview, and it could be a good one a bad one or an embarrassing one, that questions from Philippa.

Tracy Calder: 29:17

Ah, oh, oh thank you, Philippa. Ah, that's a wonderful question. I don't know. I guess my interview style was a little a little bit Orthodox, because I'm not I go into the kind of technical things of what people use, but I'm much more interested in the things that people have done that are embarrassing, or the things that they've done that keep them up at night or the things so I tend to go straight for the deep stuff. So I really love chatting to people. I don't it doesn't matter how you know where they are on the scale of celebrity photographers. So I guess I think I mentioned it in my newsletter. The other week, there was I think I interviewed Krystal Perkins that was quite a long time ago. And it was when I was first starting out in interviewing, and it takes a while to kind of get in the swing of how to do it. And we just basically went in a cafe and he said, Oh, let's get some Hey, so we got a whole pile of cream cakes. And basically most of the audio is just me and him eating cream cakes and you can't No, he can hear us the coffee machine. So it was a nightmare to transcribe. Because like it was like he was just, definitely that's delicious all the way through. That was quite embarrassing. But I guess I guess the point is, is I think when you interview someone, I think sometimes if you show them that you're you know, you tell them something vulnerable, or you tell something about yourself that they're much more willing to offer it to you. And I'm always one of those people that my main thing is I want to keep someone's story safe and just be a kind of conduit for their story. So I'm not interested in I don't work for a news channel, I'm interested in making someone look bad or getting something out of them. They don't want to say, but I want to just have a chat. It's just always a chat. So that's, that's the style.

Angela Nicholson: 30:45

Okay, that's interesting. I really enjoy chatting with people as well. But then at the end, I always sort of like, Oh, God, now I've got to write that up. So podcasts are perfect for me because I can we can just chat away and have a nice time. But at the end, if I had to write something meaningful as a result of our conversation, I'd be really stuck.

Tracy Calder: 31:02

Well, I always feel bad the stuff I leave out, you know?

Angela Nicholson: 31:06

Yeah, not saying you feel like you've got to apologise. I'm sorry, we didn't have time for that bit. Okay, can I have your second number then please?

Tracy Calder: 31:13

Number three, please.

Angela Nicholson: 31:14

Number three. Okay. Rachel says, I've really enjoyed looking at your flatlay images. Where do you get your inspiration for new photography projects? And are you still playing with flatline photography?

Tracy Calder: 31:26

Thank you, Rachel. Yeah, I think the flatlay stuff, I haven't done it for a while, but I feel the need to do one. Last week, I was sort of sniffing around the florist looking for something interesting, because I really feel like I want to get back into it again. But I guess I started that stuff in lockdown, because it couldn't go anywhere. So it kind of drifted off a bit. But I really want to get back into it. Because once I'm doing it in often, if I if I have to write something, I'll do a flat lay and some reason organising these things on the floor. Just make things a lot clearer in my head. So there's so many benefits to it. And ideas come from anywhere. I mean, there's there's a lady, I think I've mentioned her book before, and one of the, you know, one of your web chats. And it was a conscious creativity, Philippa Stanton. And she is one of those people that believes that you can find inspiration anywhere. And she went back once pulled the sofa cushions out and found a lead stuffed on the back of a sofa and made a flat layout of that. So I think ideas can come from anywhere, really. So I am still doing them. But I haven't done one for a while. But I have an inkling to get back into it. So it's a really good question.

Angela Nicholson: 32:27

I'm intrigued by you saying whenever you need to write something, you start by laying it all out.

Tracy Calder: 32:32

Usually, if I've got a deadline hanging over my head, I think I know what I'll do. I'll get a bit of card out on the floor here in the loft, and I'll do a flat lay and then half of me thinks you shouldn't be doing this, you really shouldn't be doing this you should be writing you should be writing. And then by the end of doing the flat lay, somehow, the beginning the middle, the end of the article is already in my head because organising these shapes and things seems to bring some sort of sense. I don't know how that's a weird way I work but it just seems to help.

Angela Nicholson: 32:58

All right, I might try that one. Could I have your third number, please?

Tracy Calder: 33:02

Oh, yes. Number five, please.

Angela Nicholson: 33:05

Okay, the Close up Photographer of the Year competition has a wide range of categories, which is the most challenging to judge and why. And which is your favourite category?

Tracy Calder: 33:14

The hardest for me personally, is probably the plants category. Because I think the standard is so so good. But also because I love plant photography as well. I think I bring a lot of my own thoughts to it. And I think it's sometimes you have you as a judge, I think we all know that we have our own preferences. And we have our own style, we have the things that we like, and we don't like and I think that's the category where I have to say in my head sometimes go no, I don't like pictures like that. And this is the one where I have to step back and say no, I have to be, you know, ignore my own preferences. And I have to judge what's there. But I say the standard is incredible for that category. And again, I think it's one of those ones that almost feels like it's might need slight dividing out again, because it is our most popular category. And again, you're judging sometimes it's quite hard to judge light for light within it. So that's probably my the hardest one to judge. And I think my favourite one is the human made category, because I really love that, you know, you'll see photographs are a bit of rough looking like an amazing painting or obviously, you know, Rachel and her bottle images. I mean, you know, all of that this sort of cements that looks like a painting a Rothko painting or something and it just shows people looking at the world in a completely different way. So I find that quite exciting.

Angela Nicholson: 34:24

Yeah. Okay, so question number four, please. Which number would you like?

Tracy Calder: 34:29

Ooo, I'll go number two, please.

Angela Nicholson: 34:31

Number two, your gold medal winning plant scars series is beautiful. And Philippa says she read about how you took yourself off for a weekend to make it. Do you have anything similar planned?

Tracy Calder: 34:42

Well, I'm trying to do one big project personal project a year and last year is one. I'm not sure if it's worked or not. I'm still sitting on the fence with it. So I haven't shown anybody yet. But I did I did spend a lot of I think one of those things that the plant scars thing was It was so wonderful to do. Again, it was one of those really therapeutic exercises, I would like to keep adding to that portfolio. Because I'd been interested in the idea of kind of like these sort of shapes and hieroglyphics we could see in plants, and you know, the damage created from environmental issues. So I'm still adding to that. But I do try and do a project a year, but last year is one I think, is one of those things that I wanted it to be really good, I wanted it to be really good too badly. So when I looked at it, I think the pictures aren't that great, but I was still hanging on thinking I'm gonna get, I'm gonna get something out, we're gonna get something out of it. So I may have to let that one go first before I start the next one. So I haven't got an idea for another one. But I'm assuming unerring as to whether the previous one is worth pursuing or not.

Angela Nicholson: 35:42

Right. So it talk me through the process of the plant scars project did you ring fence, however long? Was it a week or a weekend? And say, right, I'm going to do a project then. And really go off in your weekend and decide what that was going to be be inspired wherever you were? Or did you decide what you wanted to photograph and then start planning the weekend?

Tracy Calder: 36:01

Well, it, was, umm, I love the Isle of Wight anyway. And obviously, I'm in Winchester, so I'm not too far. So So I went on holiday there. And I take one photo, which was the kind of PacMan photo of the plant scars. And I took that while we were on holiday. And then I came back and I thought, actually, that's quite cool. And I remember seeing some of the other angles there and thought, oh, maybe there's a whole way of kind of tittle was like showing a language of flowers. So I basically thought, right, I'm going off the weekend by myself, and I'm just gonna go to the garden. And this is what I'm gonna do. And because I was staying in the garden itself, which event No, which you can do, they will let you in before the public gets in. So I was there at like, six in the morning. Nobody around lots of little lizards, red squirrels running about, you know, just me and my camera. Wow. And it was absolute heaven. And I thought I didn't get anything out of this. It doesn't matter. I'm having a wonderful time. And it didn't get kicked, keep getting stabbed in the head by these cacti, which was a bit irritating. So then, whilst I was doing it, I thought, well, maybe I'll get five or six.

Angela Nicholson: 36:59

T hat sounds amazing.

Tracy Calder: 37:00

Yeah, it was it was really good fun. Yeah.

Angela Nicholson: 37:03

Okay, so your fifth number, then please?

Tracy Calder: 37:06

I'll go four.

Angela Nicholson: 37:08

Okay. Is there a certain type of image you would like to see in close up photography the year that hasn't featured before that questions from Penny?

Tracy Calder: 37:15

Ooo, thank you, Penny. That's a really good question. I don't know, really, I think I think we've just sort of scratched the surface with it. To be honest, I think there are so many amazing pictures. You know, this year, I saw tadpoles eating a bird I saw, you know, ants firing this acid out of their bottoms. You know, like water pistols, I saw all this incredible stuff that made me think of how much more there still is to see in this kind of field. So I don't think I know what I haven't seen that if you know, I mean, I'm excited to see new things all the time. I mean, for a while, I did think it'd be nice to see more black and white. So I mentioned that. And then this year, we got a lot more black and white. And that was great, because it's not something people tend to associate with close up. I don't think so. And obviously, the winner was black and white this year as well. So I don't know what I want to see until someone showed it to me. So anyway, I just think people want to see something that has an emotional impact. Because when you're judging something I've had people say to me, Oh, well, I really love that picture. But I can't really say why. And they'll try and break it down. And I say actually, the emotion is the biggest judge of a picture, I think. If you feel something when you look at it, you shouldn't dismiss it because it's got this technical fault. Whatever if you've looked at it and you felt something, but that's the first indication that it's a good picture.. So I guess anything that makes any of us do that, you know, is going to be good. I'd like to see. So anything that you look at it and you think, wow, there's something about that. I want to see it. I don't care what the subject is.

Angela Nicholson: 38:33

And the more you look at the competition, I guess, you know, look at the winners on the shortlist of images, the more you might be inspired to sort of think, Oh, I could do something, you know, it just takes you in a different direction gives you some ideas.

Tracy Calder: 38:45

Yeah, I'd like to see more of the kind of human made stuff, I guess, because of the human made, although it's my favourite category is probably the least populated category. So I guess it'd be nice to see some more of those because I think that's a whole other there's a that's quite an area that could be expanded on.

Angela Nicholson: 38:59

Okay, give it a go. Penny. Okay, so your final question then please.

Tracy Calder: 39:04

Oh, I'll go 10 then please.

Angela Nicholson: 39:06

Okay, you visit many art galleries and exhibitions? Was there a particular visit that inspired a photography project in 2023? That question is from Alex.

Tracy Calder: 39:15

Whoa, that's another really good question. I love that. Thank you, Alex. Um, I guess the place that inspired the most last year for me was that Pitt Rivers Museum in Oxford. Yep. And that's there permanently, you know, obviously, you probably been there, but it has something about that place, there's some sort of magic in that, that place that you step in it, and it feels to me like there are 100 different project ideas just there. So I went around and I was like scribbling things down I was looking at just things like the beadwork and things like the storytelling you know, the instruments they had for sort of communicate with each other before they would write down texts and things like that. All those things kind of feed into my photography, I think so I just just that space in itself. I could I could go there every day, I think and stand there and come up with a new idea for a project. So I think it's wonderful. That's probably my answer to that.

Angela Nicholson: 40:02

Yeah. Okay, so good. So I have been there, but not for a long, long time. Maybe I need to give it another visit.

Tracy Calder: 40:07

Oh, I love it.

Angela Nicholson: 40:08

Maybe we'll have a SheClicks meet-up there or something.

Tracy Calder: 40:10

Yeah, that's cool. That's a good idea.

Angela Nicholson: 40:12

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for answering all those questions. It's been really great to hear from you.

Tracy Calder: 40:18

Oh, thanks for having me on. It's been an absolute pleasure. It's always a joy to talk to the SheClicks community and thank you for all the work you do. I think it's wonderful. So the lovely supportive group.

Angela Nicholson: 40:26

Oh, thank you. Okay. Bye.

Tracy Calder: 40:28

Bye.

Angela Nicholson: 40:31

Thanks for listening to this episode of the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I hope you enjoyed it. You will find links to Tracy's social media channels and website in the show notes. I'll be back with another episode soon. So please subscribe to the show on your favourite podcast platform and tell all your friends and followers about it. You'll also find SheClicks on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube if you search for SheClicks net. So until next time, enjoy your photography.