Kate Kirkman: Understanding Your Camera Boosts Creativity and Confidence

Kate Kirkman: 0:03

In order to be a good wedding photographer, an accomplished wedding photographer, you have to know what's coming next. It's never about what you're shooting. In that moment. It's what's coming next.

Angela Nicholson: 0:16

Welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. I'm Angela Nicholson, I'm the founder of SheClicks which is a community for female photographers. In these podcasts, I talk to women in the photographic industry to hear about their experiences, what drives them, and how they got to where they are now. In this episode, I'm speaking with Sony Ambassador Kate Kirkman of Kate Hopewell Smith photography. She's an expert in various photographic fields, including wedding portrait, boudoir and food. She describes her style as fine art storytelling, and promises to capture natural emotion and human connection in a stylish and creative way. Hi, Kate, welcome to the SheClicks Women in Photography Podcast. Thanks for joining me today.

Kate Kirkman: 0:56

Aww, thanks having m,e it's lovely to be here.

Angela Nicholson: 0:58

It seems like quite a while since I saw you just trying to think back. It was probably a Photography Show a long time ago when you were sitting on a sofa with Brent, your husband, talking to lots of people about your training courses, I think.

Kate Kirkman: 1:11

Gosh, yes, that has been some time, that was pre-pandemic.

Angela Nicholson: 1:16

Yes. But let's not think about the pandemic.

Kate Kirkman: 1:18

No, let's not, although I first one back, we had a little positive test while we were there.

Angela Nicholson: 1:25

Oh, crikey.

Kate Kirkman: 1:26

It's been a while since I've seen you.

Angela Nicholson: 1:28

Yes. Anyway, I'd like to start by asking you how you got to being a professional photographer, because like a lot of photographers I've spoken to, it wasn't your original calling, you actually went from another career into photography, and how did that work for you?

Kate Kirkman: 1:41

I think it was a very typical change in the sense that I was in London working in media, and branding and advertising, loved it, but I wanted to start a family and did that and want to be a full time Mum for a bit. And at the same time moved out of London. So two fairly major life changes, and found being full time mother pretty full-on, the hardest job I've ever done, and then had to start thinking about the future. And what that meant work-wise because I knew that I was never going to be a full time mother for the long haul. And I was really faced with a decision, Angela, about going back to commuter train to London to continue that career.

Angela Nicholson: 2:26

Yep.

Kate Kirkman: 2:27

(Or) to try and do something a bit suited to family life. And in parallel to having to make that decision, I had been bought a camera for Christmas. A little D80, a little Nikon, and it was very much my hobby to run alongside full-time motherhood. And people were just saying, 'why don't you try and do something with photography?'. And I just thought 'why not?'. But, and interestingly, I wasn't too worried about running the business side, which is huge. Because I had some experience with that I was much more concerned about being a better photographer. So I then spent a year training and learning an d building the business before launching and just thinking, well, I'll give it a go and see what happens.

Angela Nicholson: 3:11

So had you done much photography as a hobby before then?

Kate Kirkman: 3:15

No!

Angela Nicholson: 3:16

Was a very conscious, 'I've got this camera, and I'm going to become a professional'?

Kate Kirkman: 3:20

I know it sounds crazy. And it is crazy. But no. I had done a lot of painting. And I've done a History of Art degree. And so I actually had a really solid grounding in visual arts and composition and colour theory. And, ironically, all the things that help to formulate imagery without the technical knowledge of a camera. And for me, it was about that it was about understanding how to create what I wanted using the equipment. It was never about the kit or the photography. For me it was about the end result, so and I realised very quickly how much I didn't know and just focused on filling those knowledge gaps really.

Angela Nicholson: 4:07

Yeah, but I guess you were swapping your paint brushes for a camera and just trying to produce something that was the same kind of thing, but with a different tool.

Kate Kirkman: 4:16

Yeah, totally. And I still very much am drawn to painterly work and quite you know, figurative work, so working with with people and with form. And it just really was an incredibly fast way to achieve what I used to spend hours and hours doing in a painting. And In understood how I wanted to work with light. I just didn't know how to make the camera do it.

Angela Nicholson: 4:44

Yeah.

Kate Kirkman: 4:45

So it was very much about for me, I've never been obsessed with with kit it's only ever been about enabling me to to create something. Rather than, you know, this lens or that lens or you know. I think a lot of women are like that anyway.

Angela Nicholson: 5:01

Yeah, yeah, I'd agree. And I was thinking about this just the other day, actually, that photography when you come down to it, I mean, there are lots of buttons and controls and great long menus on cameras, but actually, we're talking about shutter speed, aperture, sensitivity, or ISO, which are the basic things you had with film photography, and then white balance. So sort of like the colour, the look. And they're actually quite straightforward to understand, the problem is that they just use such weird numbers. So you know, you're talking about F 2.8? What does that mea n? You know, 1/1000 of a second 100 and 125th, and stuff like that. It's kind of those aren't intuitive. And I think it's that, that is the stumbling block for a lot of people, isn't it?

Kate Kirkman: 5:45

Exactly, instead, it's counterintuitive, and reminds you of physics, ha, which it is.

Angela Nicholson: 5:51

Yeah.

Kate Kirkman: 5:52

And often women then try to understand it properly. And use the the auto features of the camera to their advantage, which you know, I did, and there's nothing wrong with that. But when you begin to learn how you like to shoot light, and for me, that's generally not the way the camera does. In auto mode, it's it's absolutely the opposite of that. And once I realised that I was constantly having to use exposure compensation, like if I was in aperture priority, constantly compensating in either direction to achieve what I wanted, I soon realised that I needed to understand this better and get working manually, otherwise, I'm just slowing myself down. And also, you know, this is great obsession in the industry, mainly with men about histograms, you know, perfect histograms. And we spend a lot of time when we're training saying there is no such thing as a perfect histogram. And

Angela Nicholson: 6:50

Yes.

Kate Kirkman: 6:51

I had a guy, we've actually training Sony and Wilkinson Cameras to shoot video recently, and, and there was somebody would very much like that. And you know, and he and I said to him, 'have you ever looked at your histogram when shooting in snow conditions?' And he just kind of looked blankly at me and I thought, you see, he didn't really, this is the problem. I think people get fixated on reading something or, or some small element rather than having this kind of bigger picture understanding of how to make the camera work for you.

Angela Nicholson: 7:22

Yeah, I remember I was I was doing a little sort of talk about the basics of photography one time, and I just said, basically, it's all fractions. That's where it gets confusing. When it's an F and a slash, that's, because it's a fraction. And somebody came up to me afterwards and said, 'Oh, my God, that makes so much sense'. I think sometimes you need to just hear things being said in a different way. And I remember when somebody gave me a sort of, I don't know, it was like an hour or two hour's tuition on the basic controls of a camera, and he sort of explained Aperture Priority and Shutter Priority, what they all did, and everything. I pointed at the Auto 'so what does that do?' He said, 'well, that estimates it for you'. And so I was like 'so it does everything', and he's like, 'yeah', so I just looked at him and turned it to Auto walked out the room. But you know, it's an obvious reaction, but you really have to kind of go through the process of learning what aperture does and what shutter speed does. And one day, you might think it won't, but one day, there's just something connects, 'Oh, right. Now I've got it.'

Kate Kirkman: 8:19

And I think it's, it's when you actually choose to, to take control of everything, including the light.

Angela Nicholson: 8:28

Yeah.

Kate Kirkman: 8:28

Rather than, you know, for me, I realised that I was location lead, or, or people that so I'd be attracted to the location or the person rather than understanding that you need to start with the lights. And then where does that take you in terms of location? And what does that mean you ask somebody or gently direct someone to do to enable the best light. And I think once you realise that, understanding the camera and, and the kind of technology side of it, that is only going to make you more creative, that's when you maybe have an appetite for it.

Angela Nicholson: 9:06

And when you got to that point, was that when you started using flash?

Kate Kirkman: 9:10

Yeah, quite quickly. But also, I think, if you shoot weddings, or families, you very quickly realise that you don't necessarily get to choose the perfect time to shoot or and you very rarely in this country get the perfect lighting conditions. And when you're working on location, you almost never get the perfect location conditions. So it's, it's constant compromise. And that's what I say, Brent and I do, we just problem solve from start to finish, whatever the shoot we're on. We very rarely work in fully controlled environments. And in fact, those are probably food photography, we tend to fully control it and then there's a lot of work setting it up and getting it right and then the actual shoot is very straightforward and very easy. And it's the opposite of how we tend to work with with people. And and this is it once you understand that, that your job that I live in above everything else is to problem solve. And at weddings incredibly quickly, then you realise how important it is that you understand your kit and have to hand any additional elements that you might need. Because lighting at weddings is tough, it's really tough. And even if it's a summer or the winter, it really doesn't matter. And all I'm ever doing is trying to create the best light that I can. And if I can go to a wedding and a nice ambient light, then of course, I'm going to do that, you know, I'm still fundamentally a lover of natural light. But I also understand that it rarely pays to my advantage from start to finish on a sheet.

Angela Nicholson: 10:43

Are there ever any time so you're at a wedding and you can see that the light, the really nice light is coming. But the couple are, I don't know, doing something, maybe maybe they're cutting the cake, you've got the cake cutting pictures, but they're still cutting the cake and you know that the light is going to come really good outside by the fountain and you just kind of, do you ever have to restrain yourself from rushing it and say, 'come on, we're gonna get the shot'? Or do you just go for it?

Kate Kirkman: 11:06

When we were at Ashridge and the couple had talked very much about wanting golden hour. Not everybody gets it. They had it. And so I basically know the window of opportunity around what has to be achieved in terms of the wedding shedule. And so I always go make a deal with them. I say, okay, A, do you want to do this? Because obviously, they are entitled to turn around and say'no'. And then if they do want to do it, then I give them the parameters by you know, literally with, what, X amount of time and the bride said 'yes, no problem. And I do want to be in my evening dress' as she had two dresses, and I said, 'fine'. And so she agreed she'd leave literally straight after the speeches. And then I said,'fine, we'll wait outside, so you know where to come.' 20 minutes later, we're still standing there. And in the end, I go in, literally running to find her. And eventually, I found her and we probably had about three or four minute, and we're just watching the light dropping. And we you know, yes, we managed to achieve it. But there are times when I understand it's their wedding and they make a decision. But it can Yes, it can was deeply frustrating.

Angela Nicholson: 12:14

Yeah.

Kate Kirkman: 12:15

Deeply.

Angela Nicholson: 12:17

If one of a couple starts talking to you about you know, when they're planning the shoot or you know, talking about their their wedding that they want you to photograph and they start using words like depth of field and golden hour, does that make a klaxon go off in your head? Or do you sort of think, oh, they know a bit about this? So it's going to be plain sailing? Or do you imagine they're going to start doubling and directing?

Kate Kirkman: 12:38

Actually, no. I mean, again we were chatting to a couple on Sunday evening in New York and getting married over here next year. And I began to realise from his questions, that he had some knowledge and I said, you know, do you have an interest in photography? And he just said, 'yeah, I love it and I bought a camera during lockdown, a Sony', and and you know what's interesting, Angela, is probably 80% of our weddings, either the bride or groom or an immediate family member has a really in the big interest in photography, and therefore, it really matters to them. So and when it matters to people then much easier to work with. Because they understand that it takes teamwork. And it takes effort to produce beautiful imagery. And we're very good at saying this to our clients in advance, they cannot put the full responsibility on to Brent and I, it is a team work. And without them doing what's necessary and giving the energy and giving the time. They're not going to get what they want.

Angela Nicholson: 13:44

Yeah.

Kate Kirkman: 13:45

And I think a lot of photographers take on too much. I really do. And then they shouldn't

Angela Nicholson: 13:50

But perhaps those people are also better informed about what makes a good image. So they, you know, they come to your website and recognise that you do good photography, and that's what they want. So therefore they're prepared to listen as well.

Kate Kirkman: 14:02

I definitely, definitely and they understand that they need to pay for it. And that's the other big part.

Angela Nicholson: 14:08

Yes, that's true. Yeah. Do you ever find like oh the parents are paying and you know that you've agreed everything with the with the couple but then the parents they're paying for the photography and they want to have a say as well? Is that ever been an issue for you?

Kate Kirkman: 14:19

It definitely and it tends to be more that when the parents are paying they're more interested in family photos than anything else. And

Angela Nicholson: 14:30

Right.

Kate Kirkman: 14:31

The mother, mother-in-laws can be right pain and and when we're managing the couple's want vs what the people who are paying want, and you have to do both. So that you know. But at the end of the day, we do always say to the client that they are, the couple, that they are our client.

Angela Nicholson: 14:50

Yeah.

Kate Kirkman: 14:51

the people that are paying. At the end of the day these photographs are for the couple but within that we will always do our absolute best to keep, you know, everybody happy. It can be difficult at times.

Angela Nicholson: 15:03

Yes. So you've been doing this for a while now. And you've gone all over the world shooting in fantastic locations, gorgeous scenery. But what was your very first wedding shoot, like?

Kate Kirkman: 15:15

Absolutely terrifying. No, I remember and it was a friend's brother-in-law was getting married. And I'm, she just said, 'Come on, do it'. And I just said, 'I'm not ready.' You know, I'd never charged for a wedding. And she just said, 'they know that. It's not like you're going in pretending that you're something that you're not'. And she just said, you know, 'just do your best and, and they said, they will pay you' and they paid me a small amount. And that small amount immediately, I think was probably spent on a speedlight, which I needed, because there was a torrential downpour, a massive thunderstorm during the ceremony and straight after the ceremony. So it is it's terrifying. And the problem is that you you learn with weddings, specifically that in order to be a good wedding photographer, and accomplished wedding photographer, you have to know what coming next. It's never about what you're shooting. In that moment. It's what's coming next. And that takes experience and practice and probably getting it wrong a couple of times, and you've just got a really truely hope that you're never gonna get it badly wrong, you know, where it matters where you've totally miss something. And so it takes a lot of concentration. And

Angela Nicholson: 16:38

Yeah,

Kate Kirkman: 16:39

trying, we always say we're a bit like, swans were very calm on the surface. But underneath at times we're paddling like mad. And it's really just about, I'm never drifting off in the moment. So in ceremonies, I'm never just standing there kind of thinking about something else. I'm constantly thinking, what happens next, and setting cameras up, etc, for that in preparation and thinking. So let's say the recessional are coming out of a church, one camera will be preset for outside. And the other camera will be the one that I will be shooting the recessional on, you know, it's just things like that. And then and then immediately that the recessional has ended, I'm already changing cameras for the confetti run, because sometimes it's almost instantaneous. There is a lot of that and you can't you can't teach someone that and give them the necessary knowledge. Actually doing it in the moment that I think honestly think it takes time and practice and yeah, kind of practice.

Angela Nicholson: 17:43

Do you remember a point after a wedding where you thought, 'I've got this now, I know what I'm doing'.

Kate Kirkman: 17:49

I don't know if there's if it was ever like one significant turning point. But I've always given the analogy of a jigsaw puzzle. And I remember in the early years, just feeling like there was so many empty pieces of knowledge. And it's those empty pieces of knowledge that affect your confidence so badly. And again, what I used to do in the past was, I'd want to go to the venue super early, probably even go to the venue in advance, and walk around and make decisions and think I can do the group photos, they're doing this here. And you learn that experience that that's really a nightmare, you must not do that because you can't rely on weather in light. So actually walking in with a plan is counterproductive to your confidence. Because if things then unravel, shedules change, people decide they want to do something different, that's where it comes to compromise, problem solving and being able to work very quickly. You're better off walking in just thinking. 'I can deal with whatever is thrown at me'. That is where people should aim to be with photography. And it doesn't matter what they're shooting, unless they're doing it for pleasure, if they're doing it being paid, and it's absolutely you know, a job, then you've got to work out what's going to throw me, what can I not currently deal with? And how do I go about getting that knowledge? Because the more knowledge you get, the more your confidence builds and then we can go into any shoot thinking'I've got this'. And we've been at that stage for years now. And I don't worry about shoots anymore. I don't worry at all doesn't mean I don't go in apprehensive, the apprehension will be the people or the weather, or there'll be something that will make it harder for me. I mean Brent and I go in with an arsenal of kit we are actually good boy and girl scouts in the sense of being prepared. We have huge amount with us now. But we won't necessarily use it.

Angela Nicholson: 19:55

So I was gonna ask her how many cameras do you personally use at a wedding? You said had them with different setups, do you just use two? Or do you have more than two?

Kate Kirkman: 20:03

Two on me, physically for photography, and for video, we'll probably run five cameras for Sona wedding.

Angela Nicholson: 20:14

Wow.

Kate Kirkman: 20:14

Yeah, it's a lot.

Angela Nicholson: 20:16

And is it just you and Brent?

Kate Kirkman: 20:17

No, now under by Lumiere there's a team of four of us, as we've got Elizabeth and Mark who worked with us who we've trained. And we're even now at Ashridge, well actually any venue people can choose to have Brent and I leading the photography, videography, or both, or they can have Elizabeth or Mark. So it means that we've got different price points now. But we still all shoot Sony same style use Rotolight, and yeah, it's just giving clients a bit more of a price dif ferentiator. And actually, Brent and I are beginning to slow down slightly after 15 years of doing this.

Angela Nicholson: 21:00

That sounds good.

Kate Kirkman: 21:03

That's the idea.

Angela Nicholson: 21:04

But I had visions of Brent running between five different cameras.

Kate Kirkman: 21:07

Well, the good thing about video, of course, is that you need stability. So actually, certain cameras will just be locked off for a ceremony and their only job is to get one particular now angle, or moment. So at Ashridge there's one shot of the bride can be downstairs with her Dad, and the one camera will do only that because it's such a vital scene, or we're not going to put someone in that spot for the whole ceremony. So yeah, it's that's why you need more than you do with photography because you just move with photography.

Angela Nicholson: 21:39

But what is it about wedding photography that draws you what got you into it in the first place? And what keeps you shooting it?

Kate Kirkman: 21:45

For those of us who didn't maybe go to college, to study photography, didn't do a degree and have done an apprenticeship, it's a it's a pretty straightforward entry to market. Family photography, and wedding photography are definitely, if you have this dream of being a full time photographer, it's it's not a difficult entry point. Because as we know it's an unregulated market, you really just need to create a brand and build a website and and if you get your SEO right, or your or your networking skills, who knows what might happen. So it's probably frighteningly easy to actually get into it, but it's not easy at all to have a sustainable profitable business because many people are under charging, and they don't understand the importance of charging properly when they take into consideration everything, your insurance, the kit, the overheads, software, and you know, there's a lot of problems with the business side of it for a lot of wedding photographers and family photographers. And some are only doing it for extra income, which we understand that causes a lot of problems for people who are doing it full time. So it was an easy way for me as a man to have a go without investing a huge amount or totally retraining. I did I did train I did tdo a year-long kind of business slash photography course.

Angela Nicholson: 23:18

Yeah.

Kate Kirkman: 23:19

And I did obviously invest in the kit and everything but it's still not a difficult way to get into it. So I would say was more than half really honestly it's not what I thought Oh, I definitely want to be a wedding photographer. I like the idea that I still love working with people and all the rest of it but it was probably quite straightforward route in the reality is that I probably now sheet will do two or when I do anything that's become the big thing for me. And that has been you know, I think really interesting that there's this huge market out there. And in essence, its own so I prefer it but you know, weddings are a huge commitment. You're there 10 to 12 hours as a huge amount of work to do afterwards. Tiring physically. So Brent and I, you know when we're not going to stop yet, but I'm certainly not going to be doing it in 10 years.

Angela Nicholson: 24:17

You mentioned boudoir photography. How did you introduce that to your business?

Kate Kirkman: 24:21

So it was actually probably about 12, smaybe around 2010 time my sister-in-law contacted me to say that a friend of her husband was turning 5, and he was very wealthy and successful and had everything you wanted and she didn't know what to buy him. So she decided to do shoot and we talked and she wanted to do it all about, he liked her legs, sounds so funny doesn't it? Anyway, I was like, 'yeah let's do this shoot' and in my, my kind of looking at, I don't know if Pinterest was even a thing then, I kind of began to get the sense of this thing 'boudoir' that hadn't yet reached the UK properly at all. And when I turned up for the shoot, she showed me all these lovely clothes. And then I said, 'do you have any lingerie' and she kind of open this whole drawer up and Iwas like, Oh my goodness'. And that was the first shoot that ever did, but as lingerie-lead, and I really enjoyed it, and it's kind of grown from there. And I definitely think it's the most difficult thing I do. Ah, in the sense of doing it well, and without question and most rewarding. It's it's really quite transformative for women.

Angela Nicholson: 25:35

Yeah, I've heard that said. I've not had a boudoir shoot myself, but I know a few people who have and someone even said they felt it should be available on the NHS, because it gives you such a lift and makes you feel so positive. Which is must be a very rewarding aspect of photography,

Kate Kirkman: 25:50

Oh massively. In fact, one of one of my clients couple of years ago, you know, write to me afterwards saying it's the best therapy I never knew I needed. You know, it's that that same thing. And you know, women are just really tough on themselves. And it's almost forcing a woman to see what other people see, that they almost refuse to accept is them or could be them. They could, whenever they see the imagery, they can't really deny that maybe that's what they can look like and do look like and that the people that love them know that they don't like that. And it's just yeah, it really can change how a woman perceives itself and behaves. And it's big. It's like a really big thing, I think.

Angela Nicholson: 26:35

Yeah. Do you still rely on what they happen to have in the top drawer of the cabinet? Or do you you know, have a consultation and talk about what what clothing they might like to wear? Or maybe you have a selection or some recommended suppliers?

Kate Kirkman: 26:48

Oh yeah, I send them a whole document in advance of the shoot. I mean, there's a lot there's a lot of preparation for a shoot. Some men when they contact me and book for their wives that kind of say, 'oh, you know what, what dates will be available in the next two or three weeks?' I'm like, 'no, no, no, no.'

Angela Nicholson: 27:04

You don't understand,

Kate Kirkman: 27:06

Yeah, she's gonna need beauty appointments. She's gonna need lingerie shopping, she'll probably want to hit the gym for a month. You know? It's a big, it's a big thing. And yeah, but I have collected lots of bits and bobs over the years that that come in to, get used on shoots. Like robes and shoes, and that kind of thing. And, you know, and I actually take it very seriously, because we all know that if a woman sees one a bad photo, that photo is the photo they remember. Not the 29 lovely ones. A woman's self esteem is such a delicate thing. Yeah. You know, some of the boudoir stuff I see. I think it can do as much good as it can probably do damage.

Angela Nicholson: 27:49

Yes. It's good that it's getting the recognition for the the effect it can have on people. I think that's that's really, really good. But you also do teaching, I know you're moving more towards one-to-one mentoring rather than teaching courses or classes with groups of people. But again, you know, why, why did you move into teaching and how did that come around?

Kate Kirkman: 28:08

It was Brent, as any change in my business often is. We're this incredible team, we're very different on a business level, and how we function, but I've mentored and taught many times in my career, and then when it all got crazy busy stopped for a while and, and it was kind of Brent that said, 'you know, whenever you do spend time with people educating them, it has always been like big, or has very transformed to the fact from them', because then does a woman you communicate differently. You don't over complicate everything. And you just bring it back to the end result rather than, you know, the physics of it all. It was also at the time as we're going up online training platforms where we're really growing and we kind of looked at online training. And then Brent said,' I think the strength of what you do is in you're gonna be able to talk to people properly and not just talking at them'. And so he said, 'why don't we start training from home, we live in central England and the house is kind of a good setup to use and it's just gonna go and and let's just start with a course which you know people need', and so the first one we ever really did was the Learn to Love Your Speedlite.

Angela Nicholson: 29:23

Yep.

Kate Kirkman: 29:23

Which, you know, we ran for two or three years. Always full and by full, that was eight people. I mean, because we kept it very small. And yeah, I managed to literally get people to love their speedlights and that actually was a big thing because still so many people just hate them and scared of knowing all the rest of it. And again, it's a bit like boudoir, I think you know, people say is wedding photography really rewarding? Sometimes, but not always. It's not as rewarding as educating or boudoir.

Angela Nicholson: 29:59

It's what they always imagine they were going to get I suppose, isn't it? You know, you book a wedding photographer and have this idea,'I'm gonna have this beautiful dress, there's, he's gonna have that great suit on and we'll get these amazing photos'. So you're delivering their expectations, where I think maybe boudoir, you're delivering beyond their expectations, you're making the realise. And with training, you're taking them to the next step, aren't you?

Kate Kirkman: 30:17

I think you're right. And for me, it's always about the end result being improving confidence over and above everything. Obviously, I want to improve their photography, but I don't think enough people realise it's confidence that holds them back. Yeah, trying things. And you know, you can stay in a comfort zone on a shoot, which means you're never going to step out of the way you shouldn't, and maybe try new things because they're scared to so all I want to do is make people believe that you can problem solve, and get themselves out of a sticky situation. And that's huge.

Angela Nicholson: 30:49

Yeah. Sometimes just recognising what's caused the problem helps you solve it, doesn't it?

Kate Kirkman: 30:54

I just think realising that it's not your fault if on a shoot, you are faced with a really difficult scenario. People blame themselves as if I should know or how when that has happened? Or why is this happening as opposed to understanding that, and photography, particularly with people as very many different levels to it, and you have to be so good at so many different things. I think once people realise that, as long as I can of solving the problems and delivering a professional level of photography, they've done the job really well.

Angela Nicholson: 31:26

I think that's very true. You're switching to one-to-one mentoring now, which again, I think must be rewarding. But is there a danger that you want to fix things for people, rather than help them fix things you want to fix it?

Kate Kirkman: 31:38

That's a really good question. And I'm really clear the beginning of a mentor relationship, that it has to be dictated by what they want to achieve, and not what I think they need. And so I get them to really plan the sessions with me in advance because I don't want to waste their time. I mean, photography is such an enormous subject, and it's very easy to go down rabbit holes with people. So I make I make everyone planning sessions really tightly. And then within that, I have an opinion on whether I think that's the best use of time or not. Because I don't ever want anyone to walk away feeling that we've got value.

Angela Nicholson: 32:13

Yeah. Does it tend to be more the business of photography? Or is it, 'I don't understand what this setting does on my camera?' Or is it?'How do I manage my time

Kate Kirkman: 32:22

I think they are more concerned about the better?' Or what sort of things so people mostly want help with? photography, but they don't realise how important it is for them to get the business side right. You know, and that's the reality, and also in

Angela Nicholson: 32:36

Yeah. terms of my own progression that, you know, once you've you've you've got your head around this photography, which honestly, once you've done it, you've done it, I don't want to, you know, underestimate that, but it's, as you said, once you understand exposure, and you understand cameras, and you understand, adding light and things like that, it doesn't change that much, it's more about adapting it to circumstances, then it comes down to running an efficient business, and not getting to the stage where you don't like photography anymore, because it's taken your life over. And that is vital that you don't reach burnout, that you don't stop enjoying it. And that's what running the business side and, and Brent recognised that very early on when we got together, and he just said'everything is over complex. And too much of your time is spent running this business rather than doing the actual work of photography'. So we've embraced software and technology to basically get time back, because otherwise you will just be sat behind the desk all the time. Yeah. And we we are slowly beginning to explore using AI in various walks of our business now. And because Brents very much 'don't be scared of it. It's, it's an efficiency thing'. Yeah.

Kate Kirkman: 33:57

And so we're going through that process at the moment. And I'm finding that, you know, really interesting to, like, know how to basically get a better work life balance. All Brent ever wants for me is a better work life balance, because after 15 years, it's, you know, tiring. And, you know, that's what I try to say to people, I know that photography is important, but if you're not careful, you're going to stop enjoying this because the the business of it is going to take over.

Angela Nicholson: 34:26

Yeah. And actually your photography will really suffer because you resent taking pictures that you then have to process that you then have to put into albums and all of that sort of stuff. So you kind of think, 'Oh, can I just get away with 15 shots in this situation' rather than just getting into flow or whatever, you know, the joy goes out of it and then your business will go downhill. Okay, so it's time for Six from SheClicks. I've got 10 questions from SheClickers and I'd like you to answer six of them, please, by giving me numbers from one to 10. So can I have your first number please?

Kate Kirkman: 34:55

Three.

Angela Nicholson: 34:55

Number three. How do you split your time between the different types of photography that you do? I think you've mentioned weddings, boudoir, food,

Kate Kirkman: 35:03

I would say the easiest way to start is wedding work, commercial work, which also involves things like personal branding, food and everything and boudoir. And I would say it's probably at 40:40:20, weddings boudoir commercial,

Angela Nicholson: 35:23

But you like doing the boudoir more, so are you trying to make more time available for that and scaling back on the weddings?

Kate Kirkman: 35:29

Uh, yeah, and we're just about to launch a new business called Muse, which I'm actually working with two other female photographers to basically, if I wanted to I could shoot boudoir full-time.

Angela Nicholson: 35:40

Yeah.

Kate Kirkman: 35:40

That's how many enquiries I get now. And the

Angela Nicholson: 35:41

Yeah, so the ratios you talked about, that's demand. But again, I don't think you'd want to just shoot boudoir, I think it'd be emotionally exhausting. Because honestly, it's a bit counselling session. So I'm gonna do that with with two other women just to give boudoir it's potential. I quite like a balance. And if I'm honest, I never one that would only want to shoot one thing day in day out. how it works out, but that's a balance that works nicely for

Kate Kirkman: 36:09

So we don't any more, shoot 25 weddings a year, you. because that almost immediately negates the ability to either shoot anything else as much as you want to, or your end up being so busy that you hate it.

Angela Nicholson: 36:23

And nobody wants that.

Kate Kirkman: 36:24

Now we might shoot 15 weddings, and at the weddings we shoot now both photography and videography. So in essence doing 15 wedding, we're doing 30 weddings in terms of income, right?

Angela Nicholson: 36:38

Yep.

Kate Kirkman: 36:39

So that's enabled me to spend more time on boudoir?

Angela Nicholson: 36:42

Yep. Okay ,so marry a videographer is what you're saying?

Kate Kirkman: 36:45

Yeah, definitely. I love filming that and he's taught me and it's I love it. Great.

Angela Nicholson: 36:49

Can I have the number for your next question, please?

Kate Kirkman: 36:53

Okay, and then 10

Angela Nicholson: 36:55

Number 10. What's your favourite part of a wedding day? That's from Caroline.

Kate Kirkman: 36:59

Ooh, that's a really good question. I still love the ceremony, you know that's why, that's why we're all there at the end of the day. I love the ceremony for the event, and then I obviously like the couple session, but in terms of what makes me happy it's watching two people committing still.

Angela Nicholson: 37:17

Aww, that's nice. Okay, so your third number, please?

Kate Kirkman: 37:23

Eight

Angela Nicholson: 37:24

Number eight. Oh, do you ever do shoots with other people who work in weddings so like florists or dressmakers?

Kate Kirkman: 37:31

Yeah, very much so. Last week, we filmed a brand video for a bespoke tailor. And next week, I'm working with a flourist. So that that to me is commercial work, right? It's kind of sits under the commercial work. But yes, absolutely and it comes through the wedding industry. Weddings are very good, if you're wanting to get into wedding photography, establish yourself and offer your skill. You have this amazing content everybody needs. So be generous with their generous with your time. And you'll be amazed what opportunities it opens up for you. I've always said to people that, you know, we're in a position of strength with photography and videography. And it's such an easy way to get to build connections and network basically.

Angela Nicholson: 38:21

Before we move on, I can't help pointing out that that was a lovely bit birdsong in the background there. Have you got a canary in your office?

Kate Kirkman: 38:29

We are in the garden. It's a garden office and the doors are open.

Angela Nicholson: 38:32

Well, Oh, it's lovely. Okay, can I have another

Kate Kirkman: 38:36

Another number? So, five. number, please?

Angela Nicholson: 38:40

Number five. What would make you pick up your camera after work? That question is from Liz.

Kate Kirkman: 38:46

Not a lot. Joke, joke.

Angela Nicholson: 38:49

It seems to be quite a common theme actually. I've spoken to a few professionals, who say 'no, no, not anymore'.

Kate Kirkman: 38:55

And in fact, Brent and I don't even take a professional body on holiday with us we just use our phones. Sony knows that, this I'm not saying anything I wouldn't say to them. What would make it would be an important event. So I'd still pick it up for my friend's birthday or something happening and my kid with the dog, you know. When the when the memory matters put it that way. Because I hate everything being on phones.

Angela Nicholson: 39:26

Yeah.

Kate Kirkman: 39:27

I still want beautiful pictures and video.

Angela Nicholson: 39:30

And you can never have too many pictures of your dog either.

Kate Kirkman: 39:33

No, and she's not even really technically ours, but I adore her. But black labs are notoriously difficult to photograph.

Angela Nicholson: 39:40

Oh God. Yes, they really are. Okay, so your penultimate number.

Kate Kirkman: 39:46

Oh, okay. One .

Angela Nicholson: 39:47

Number one. Okay, this is a good one. Actually. This is from Rebecca. How did you find switching from a DSLR to a mirrorless camera?

Kate Kirkman: 39:54

Honestly, for two weeks really painful, really, really painful because it's just a completely different animal. And like any of us, and I always use the analogy of cars, when you have a car, you've been driving for a while, and you get from A to B without conscious thought of driving. That's how it was with my DSLR. I didn't think about anything, right? My handy and brain did the work. So I just felt like I was massively handicapped for a period of time. But that was very soon outweighed by the enormous benefits of shooting mirrorless. Just the speed, the accuracy, and seeing what you get for starters, immediately made me think just get through the pain and get to the stage when you're driving this thing effortlessly. So yeah, I found it really, really frustrating, I think probably would be the headline.

Angela Nicholson: 40:51

But you switch brands as well, so like the menu system and the button layout would have been quite dramatically different.

Kate Kirkman: 40:57

Yeah, and I found the Nikon though, depending on the body you're on the buttons were in different places. Anyway, so that was a frustration to Brent and I on different kind of Nikon bodies. Yeah, it was it is huge, but as I said, the the upside of mirrorless certainly for how what we shoot and how we shoot was just so outweighed the the slight pain barrier, you have to get through that. Behind me are some great old cameras, but it's my Nikon, and my D3 and that, or D3s, and that's there because I'm not changed in my photography career while I had that camera, so that's the only one I didn't trade in just because it's got loads of memories for me. But it's huge. I look at it and it hasn't even get the battery pack on. Everything needs to be smaller and lighter and faster.

Angela Nicholson: 41:45

Yeah. how did you adapt to the EVF (electronic viewfinder) compared to an optical viewfinder?

Kate Kirkman: 41:49

It's fine, it didn't bother me, because to me, it's not about all the nuances of the kit. It's not about you know, all the tests that the camera mags everybody do in order to establish the lenses shot. I just don't care, I care about the end result not the process of the making and so it honestly just doesn't last matter to me. And in fact, I am left eye shooter. Now this is an interesting one for some of the SheClicks ladies, I don't know if they've ever thought about it. But I am strongly right handed and I'm a left eye shooter. And with DSLRs under using a viewfinder you actually disappear behind the camera completely. So I found mirrorless and the accuracy the autofocus system and Eye AF and everything with Sony enabled me to bring the camera away from my face. And now unless I'm outside in very bad conditions, I never look through the viewfinder. So I actually rely on the LCD.

Angela Nicholson: 42:47

Oh, that's really interesting.

Kate Kirkman: 42:49

Because I had no peripheral visio.

Angela Nicholson: 42:51

I'm a left-eyer.

Kate Kirkman: 42:52

If you're right handed and left-eyed, it shows signs of great creativity. And for people who have never thought about it, all they need to do is create little square, okay, have a stationary object in front of it. And then, they just need to close each eye, one after the other, and the object

Angela Nicholson: 43:08

They just automatically assumed it's their will move on the weaker eye. Whichever it moves less slash, doesn't mean at all, that's your dominant eye and a lot of people will find that they are left died and maybe don't even know it. right. Interesting.

Kate Kirkman: 43:28

And cameras are all built for right eye.

Angela Nicholson: 43:30

Yeah. Okay, so your final number, please?

Kate Kirkman: 43:33

You tell me. You asked me the question you'd like the most now.

Angela Nicholson: 43:35

Okay. Number six. What's your idea of photography hell? What type of shoot would you try and avoid at all costs?

Kate Kirkman: 43:46

Studio.

Angela Nicholson: 43:47

Studio, really?

Kate Kirkman: 43:49

Studio shoots of families. Right there, photography hell,

Angela Nicholson: 43:57

Just too many people, setting up lights?

Kate Kirkman: 44:00

No location, no ambient light to inspire me. You know just a blank piece of paper. It's that same thing of you know if you've ever told, right go and create, go and draw something or create a painting and you're like, 'of what!' You know, I need some inspiration, I need a brief or I need something. Otherwise I have a blank blank and piece of paper in front of me. To me that's what a studio is. areas I

Angela Nicholson: 44:28

Yeah

Kate Kirkman: 44:29

I get so much of my personal inspiration from everything that's in the frame.

Angela Nicholson: 44:35

Yeah, I think that's the thing isn't is it whatever kind of floats your boat or gets your creative mind thinking that's that's the important thing. And some people like that blank canvas, but not you it would appear.

Kate Kirkman: 44:46

I find it soul destroying, but I'm sure most people love it, it's just not for me.

Angela Nicholson: 44:51

Well, thank you so much for answering those questions and agreeing to come on the podcast today. It's been really, really lovely to hear from you.

Kate Kirkman: 44:57

Ahhh, it's lovely to chat to you again. And well done for everything you've achieved with SheClicks, it's honestly a brilliant community. And, you know, just probably a last word to all those lovely ladies is to, honestly, if it's something you don't know, you're struggling with, then use the community because without question someone in that community understands and can help, because it will improve confidence and therefore creativity, which could only be a good thing.

Angela Nicholson: 45:29

That's a great point to finish. Thank you very much. Thanks for listening to this episode of the SheClikcs Women In Photography Podcast, I hope you enjoyed it. You'll find links to Kate's websites and social media channels in the show notes. I'll be back with another episode soon. So please subscribe to the show on your favourite podcast platform and tell all your friends and followers about it. You'll also find SheClicks on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube if you search for SheClicks net. So until next time, enjoy your photography